Breton and Omag operation help

[Rosito Brazil]

hi. my company is in the business for over 50 years in brazil. just bought my northwood sawjet and could not be happyer . reason i am posting is because i have a couple of friend in são Paulo who own a Breton router cnc and an omag cnc router. they both have they machines for less than 8 months and they are having many problems to operate them. they've been told that the tools are not good enough but as faar as i read the posts here i think there is much more involved.
i kindly ask if there is anyone here who could give good tips of how they could save more toold or if possible send a good cnc operator down to Brazil to teach these guys.
thanks

[Nick]

What are the problems? I only know about the omag router...If they are less than 8 months old then I would assume the problems is with them not being able to setup tools properly?

[Rosito Brazil]

yes. i think this is the problem and also they dont have good quality tools. do you know any vídeos that could show how to set up the tool properly?

[Nick]

The OMAG and Breton both have super nice and accurate tool calibration. The OMAG has a reneshaw probe, which uses probe programs depending on the shape of the tool with the parameters manually entered the first time that the program needs to know. The Breton has a laser system I am unfamiliar with, but is should be very good. Although the way Breton itemizes everything as a cost option maybe your friend does not have this laser calibration?

Either way, the most difficult part running a CNC machine is setting up tools. This is nothing like your CNC Sawjet in the sense that it makes them much more complicated at first. The machines themselves are the best in the world, and as young as both machines are there is likely nothing wrong with the machines.

What your friends need to do, is speak with a company like ADI, DIAMUT, maybe Terminater if they would do it, and both buy a bunch of sets that totals enough money to where the company would send a tech with the tools to set them up. Here in America you can get this with 2 sets or so, for brasil, not sure, but 2 companies buying 3/4 sets of tools + a piece would warrant one of the reputable tool companies to go there and train on setup. The reason this is offered is because no matter what machine you have, setting up tools properly is a uniform challenge for all CNC owners.

Now I have never ran crappy bits, but I imagine if they are that bad, setup is a moot point.

[Ger Vanderbas]

The new models employ the Blum laser system. It is the same system we have sold to major aerospace clients such as Sikorsky, and Exelis.

http://www.blum-novotest.de/measuring-c ... tting.html

Nick is correct, we generally itemize our options. (before discussion)

The philosophy (mine only) is that we have for each model many options such as the above probing option, table options like flat laser or robo, blade head options, right angle flat polishing, automatic drain fluting, drainboards etc.

It helps for our customers to pick a package that most closely matches their particular challenges (and budget as it were) I have not ever quoted a CNC without the tool laser. Our tool laser is somewhat different than others as it measures the entire profile, and therefore also compensates for the tolerance of the tool geometry itself.

I don't know the situation in particular in Brazil, the age of the machine or anything pertinent for a fair analysis but...

Before I get a smackdown from Nick for bloviating, let me help you with your question.


Now, considering that the tool laser measures to .0001" approximately it may happen that the tools may indeed be worn, and with this system I'd say it might be apparent.

There is more than just measurement to proper polishing. There is the placement of your pieces. There is the maintenance of the holders themselves, there is the positioning accuracy of the machine. All of these factors to name a few can be influential in the polish quality, but like what you all know it is about pressure, water, depth. The better you treat the machine, keep the table and stops, clean your toolholders, and so forth over time the better chance you have for the best quality. If you pay no attention to these things, it is only by chance you are successful.

The reason I say this is because with modern tooling the correct depth of cut is of the utmost importance so that the tool stays viable and wears homogenously. Inaccuracy in work positioning, tooling, and inherent positioning tolerances compound or "stack" Getting the best and longest results is a matter of correcting potential inacurracies before the tool meets the stone. Each machine has it's own capabilities initially and long term, but I can assure you Breton has no limitations that way. I have 10 year old machines polishing well when they are reasonably maintained and operated by a pro!

[Dan R.]

So can you help the guy or what?

Bloviating, indeed!

[Nick]

@dan. Ger, I do regret getting into it with you as badly as I did, but this post is exactly why. Someone layed out a scenario with 2 different people and 2 different machines, and instead of listening and understanding and offering help, THAT came out That was ridiculous and worse considering English is obviously his second language . This is exactly the same as how you completely didn't care to understand my general point and then tangented that classified thing that started it with us. Who are you selling a machine to? Who asked about the breton calibration system? Who gives a crap about WHY Breton line items everything? You dont listen, or care to understand, it is only grandstanding sales, that is the problem. I mentioned line items because I wasn't sure if his friend even had a laser on his machine, which he still may or may not as all items are a la carte, that was all. Dude has friends with both of these machines and they can't run them, period.

If I worked for Breton or OMAG and saw this, I think "what is your friends name and company name?" with a follow up email to the companies south American rep and then an email by the south American rep to the company would be all that is needed. In reality as I said before I think tool setup help is moreso the issue, but then again I don't work for either company as I read and type this and if I did I would probably at least try to look good in a public forum by offering some kind of help. So bloviating, yeah, just a bit

[Ger Vanderbas]

@ Dan Bloviating was not the intent.

@ Nick,

I too regret that we do not see eye to eye and that you interpret my comments that way.

I think you perhaps misread the mans post, it didn't say the machines were not running. It said he heard the polish wasn't good, and so I tried to give general tips to help a general statement.

Also, I leave this evening for Italy carrying a printed version of this comment to give to the persons responsible for that market, of which I have not the authority or reach to assist here in the US.

I should have listened to my instincts to delete the post, as I suspected this was how it would be received by someones who have not worked with me to understand whether I have served them or was bloviating.

This precisely why I don't invest the time or energy here and focus on other things.

Rosito, If you could email me with your details or the information for the client in question, it will help me to help you. Absent that, I will provide this to the market manager for Brazil, whom may be able to understand whom you are, the model of the machine, etc and who you may be dealing with at Breton.

Sorry if you also felt I was not precise enough to answer the question, but I do think if those factors mentioned are controlled, the final result on viable tools would be more than acceptable.

Have a great weekend everyone and forgive me if my words were not chosen more carefully to be more considerate of how it might be interpreted. Sometimes I do forget that not everybody has had the chance to deal with me commercially and understand my dedication to them, and not only my company.

[Nick]

I agree 100% with you, we certainly don't see eye to eye

[Ger Vanderbas]

Nick,

That's okay. You can't be with everyone.

In particular with you though in the past anytime you've asked me about equipment I did not bloviate, I tried to give you the pros and cons of options, cost of operation, functions etc, and so I cannot understand how you despite that choose to interpret me that way.

Your shop has a reputation for exceptional work because you obviously try to communicate your benefits over others in your market. I sincerely believe you care about your customers, and so when you try to articulate your benefits, I sincerely hope that you are always properly interpreted, and every prospect sees what I see. I suspect though that they do not.

Thanks though for putting me back on earth and in my place to remind me to be more careful of how I'm seen.

G

[Nick]

Ger, I didn't do anything. Read the thread from scratch, dudes can't polish, aka use their machines PROPERLY, i offered a response of direction (tool manufacturers) you wrote an essay that did not address the clients immediate need, I and Dan stated the obvious. You went Ger on it. Done.

Instead of actually helping the guy who bought the worlds best CNC from the worlds best company and cant polish an edge with it why don't you keep spending time posting at me over dribble that you are perpetuating.

[Ger Vanderbas]

Why don't you try and turn off your cynicism for five second and appreciate that I did try and help the guy.

Listen. simple I tried and you took it the way you look at everything. I'm not writing at you. Your opinion of my intent is of zero concern.

Tell me if something in my content were inaccurate about polishing the way we Do offers or my laser all which you know all about.

I already told you what I would do for the guy. I didn't feel the needs to tell everyone I would do it. I prefer to just help and move on.

Did you offer any useful help?

[Jerry Kidd]

Dear Gabriel, I am sorry I have not gotten onto the sfa site for a while but I can tell you that I do all the repairs and training for Omag machines in North America. If you can write me details about what is going wrong or photos of the issues I can eliminate them. What kind of tools do they have? At any rate I can help you. Feel free to contact me directly at jerry@omagnorthamerica.com

Jerry Kidd