what is a good fabcenter to buy

[avg]

im looking to expand and want a cnc from what I have read a fab center is prob what I need would like to do everything on one machine 3-4 kitchens a week would appreciate any advice thanks

[Dan R.]

A fab center would fill your requirement the best, imo.

[Todd Luster]

There are several good proven machines out there.
For myself the Northwood UFC was a great choice.
We have had it over 4 years now and if I were going to purchase another fab center tomorrow it would be the same.

[Carmine Pantano]

Todd said it well. Do your homework.

We also have a Northwood Fabcenter and are very happy with it.
This machine will also allow you to grow, as you can do more than 3-4 kitchens a week with it.

[ash20ash]

Depending on the type of work you do. And if you have a average bridge saw. You may find that a cnc router will work just as well and maybe save you a few bucks on the investment. Just a thought

We run this setup. And could easily do 5 a week.

It will just depend on your needs. NW is a great machine built for the long haul

[jbergman]

At 3-4 kitchens per week, are you sure that you have the cash flow to pay for a fab center or cnc machine? $100,000 at 7% payable over 5 years amounts to almost $2,000 per month. I am figuring on a used machine at that price, new machinery should be about double. I have seen too many firms get swept up in CNC euphoria and end up in financial trouble because they could not afford the payments. Although I sell machinery, I have never subscribed to the "buy it and they will come theory". There is no question that a fab center or a cnc if properly tooled and run will lower production costs, but you still have to have the volume to pay for it. Please be very careful. Buying the equipment for cash is another matter.

John Bergman
Bergman-Blair Machine/GMM USA www.bergmanblair.com
11895 N Lonely Trail
Prescott, AZ 86305
928-443-1100
516-381-6774 cell

[ash20ash]

At 3-4 kitchens per week, are you sure that you have the cash flow to pay for a fab center or cnc machine? $100,000 at 7% payable over 5 years amounts to almost $2,000 per month. I am figuring on a used machine at that price, new machinery should be about double. I have seen too many firms get swept up in CNC euphoria and end up in financial trouble because they could not afford the payments. Although I sell machinery, I have never subscribed to the "buy it and they will come theory". There is no question that a fab center or a cnc if properly tooled and run will lower production costs, but you still have to have the volume to pay for it. Please be very careful. Buying the equipment for cash is another matter.

John Bergman
Bergman-Blair Machine/GMM USA http://www.bergmanblair.com
11895 N Lonely Trail
Prescott, AZ 86305
928-443-1100
516-381-6774 cell

great advice here. Easily overlooked thoughts. And you electric, water will go up. Tooling cost will go down monthly. But will hit you all at once when you trash a set of bits. So still budget in the tooling expense.

BUT You will be able to drop one guy for sure if you were to get a cnc or fabcenter. But remember that you don't get to lay this machine off when things get slow.

Put the numbers on paper/ spreadsheet . Honest numbers will tell you if it makes sense or not.



Good post John

[scott m]

3-4 kitchens a week will not support a fabcenter payment. You need to do 5 as a minimum. Although your product will be better, your ability to bounceback from a broken or wrong piece will be quicker, but you won't make any money until you pay the machine off.

My opinion is that at the level of operation you are at, just keep a bridge saw. However, develop teams. The same team templates, fabs and installs and CALLBACKS they get paid by the SF. 2 teams will afford them and you a few dollars at that level of business.

This is the best way to control mistakes and costs IMO.

[Dan R.]

Scott,
Without knowing any financials, how can you make all those assumptions & recommendations and expect to be taken seriously?

The topic was what FabCenter to buy, not how do I afford a FabCenter or what is a good business plan for a FabCenter shop?

[Todd Luster]

I had my Northwood UFC 4 years in June and bet I haven't done more than 4 kitchens a week a month straight in any of that time.
If you are stuck in a sf price mindset, maybe 3-4 kitchens a week won't do it.
I bought a FabCenter to get out of that mindset.
I was tired of training my competition and the rat race of kitchens per week.
I needed something that would set me apart from the competition.
I needed someone always their ready to bust their ass when we had a tight schedule or was tired.
I needed a way to take those jobs that everyone passed on because it was too labor intensive.
I wanted a machine that would do it all and allow me to stay small, but give me the option to expand if I so decided.
"Woody" did it!

In my case it replaced a seasoned fabricator and polisher was how I based the thought of making the payments.
The peace of mind knowing "Woody" isn't going anywhere and will meet me anytime at night, Sunday, Christmas is the huge bonus.
He don't care if it's routering a small vanity or cutting 10 slabs.

Don't be gauged by how many kitchens a week you are doing. Think of what you will be doing besides kitchens per week!

[Dan R.]

Excellent post, Todd.

Love the name "Woody"!!

[Jesse]

Excellent post Todd!!

[BellaTerra]

Become an SFA member and you'll have a group of guys running the same machine you purchase whatever your decision and their help will be invaluable to you. Not a day goes by at the shop that I'm not applying some knowledge that came from being a member. I guarantee you won't be disappointed.

[Caleb]

Become an SFA member and you'll have a group of guys running the same machine you purchase whatever your decision and their help will be invaluable to you. Not a day goes by at the shop that I'm not applying some knowledge that came from being a member. I guarantee you won't be disappointed.

X2

[Alex DiPietro]

If I were in the market for a fabcenter I would look at the Omag Blade5 NC. Removable wooden table over aluminum, tool changers, blade changers, real 5 axis. etc. etc.

This looks interesting too.


http://www.omagspa.it/en/macchine/millsaw4x-2

[btimike]

We purchased a park fabcenter about 2.5yrs ago, not many issues except laser which park has been good about taking care of (even after warranty expired), state side service and previous buying experience's is why we continue doing business with them.

[scott m]

That park machine looks great.......Just keep in mind fabcentering is more about software then hardware. You can make any cnc with a saw into a fabcenter, if you want to spend 4 hours programming a slab.

[Ger Vanderbas]

The issue regarding volume vs. investment and payment is big topic we know.

If you've been around the industry long enough you realize there is not one scenario that is the same.

Obviously, when we talk about the payment price of an investment, we do not know for instance if the buyer would have personal capital saved for a considerable downpayment or not nor what kind of margins you are able to do in your market and what type of work is done with what stones. So many factors.

In the end, generally we have sold our fabcenter product to 60-120 square foot per day shops. In most markets this can be one or two kitchens. General production level to polish in the 4 slab maxed out full bore range of course also depending on many things.

The buyer then realizes to achieve this volume the alternative labor involved is routinely 3-4 salaries at their full costs, vs. the machine payment AND no more than 2.

The often overlooked detail here though is that cost of labor on a five year plan may in your market be indeed very comparable to the fabcenter plus labor costs for similar production, but what if my payment because I've paid a bigger up front payment for it is very low, and then what about after the five years?

After a five year payment cycle on this automation one important thing happens. If you buy a good machine and take care of it, this machine still has considerable value, and considerable life left. So, now you have increased the asset value of your company in a way that manpower does not, and at the same time now can operate on a much lower cost going forward, with no payment, and maybe some amortized maintenance costs if properly managed.

This, on paper if you talk to an accounting guru is NOT a bad value investment, as opposed to continuing with the labor in the five years or perhaps for volume adding more.

I agree though with John, certainly companies have bitten more than they can chew with technology, and this may be because sales cannot support it, but so far with our fabcenters on the market I've not had one repoed, and in two cases the company has bought additional equipment and is now operating in normal cnc mode to produce more footage and is now in that post payment cycle where things go from interesting to pretty cool.

It's an investment of high magnitude for a company, but I think at a certain level, and in many cases perhaps an investment already being made without even a depreciated residual value.

[Ken Lago]

Real cost of operating is never mentioned, that include: power consumption, tooling, crashes and the following repair bill that is always in the $1000s, and machine parts that must be replaced when worn out. It's a good idea to ask for a list of those parts and buy them before you need them, switches, unions, walves, batteries, ect....

[btimike]

That park machine looks great.......Just keep in mind fabcentering is more about software then hardware. You can make any cnc with a saw into a fabcenter, if you want to spend 4 hours programming a slab.

just to be clear I'm not a park "groupie" but 4 hrs to program a slab is way out touch.

[Dan R.]

Scott did have the very first Breton fabcenter that Breton EVER made. Every Breton Fabcenter can trace their lineage to No.1. Scott worked tirelessly with Breton and them with him to improve the software and function of the machine.

Scott has been out of the business for 4 years. A time, during which software has grown exponentially.

[scott m]

BTIMIKE....Nothing to do with park at all. What I meant was if you buy and XYZ brand machine with a saw, running say alphacam or easystone, and you program a slab to common line cut it, insert stops, edge and finish it with vein matching, and cut on pods, it takes considerable time without automated software. Pretty much the way JAN, the inventor of the fabcenter did it.

DO NOT OVERLOOK PROGRAMMING TIME. WIth Fabcentering, it is important, the rest of the time you are standing in front of the machine smoking a cigar waiting for the cycle to end.

[BrentP]

We installed a Northwood UFC in July. It's been a great machine so far but it does have its limitations. If you're doing a kitchen a day or less I'd consider it but if you have plans of 2+ per day I would just buy the router and apply the savings to a CNC saw at some point down the road. Overall we've been pretty happy with the machine.

[scott m]

I disagree brent. If your shop grows beyond that of a fabcenter and you buy a digital cutting solution, then you will have backup when your saw goes down. How much extra is that saw????? Can't be that much.

[Dan R.]

Expensive talk (back up saw) from the Harbor Frieght King.

Far more value in router and saw over a FabCenter for over 2 kitchens a day.

Really, the best solution is a second shift on the FabCenter. Period. No increase in fixed cost (machinery), only variable (labor).