what is a good fabcenter to buy

[DavidL]

Really, the best solution is a second shift on the FabCenter. Period. No increase in fixed cost (machinery), only variable (labor).

x2

[Todd Luster]

We installed a Northwood UFC in July. It's been a great machine so far but it does have its limitations. If you're doing a kitchen a day or less I'd consider it but if you have plans of 2+ per day I would just buy the router and apply the savings to a CNC saw at some point down the road. Overall we've been pretty happy with the machine.

You will be surprised what you can run thru a A UFC once you get some experience with it.
I have jammed some crazy stuff thru it.
After having 4 years, I can drop what I'm doing now and go run 2 kitchens with my wife or son and leave by 6. Done more several times in a pinch.
I am the owner of the company though and can get a hell of a lot more done than any of my employees, just like handfabbing. My care factor is much greater.

[bocephus]

Curious?...for the guys who have fabcenters. Do yall keep and use a bridge saw or does a fabcenter pretty much render a bridge useless except for a backup when the fab center is down?

[Antonio Almonte]

Hello,

Sorry I have not been on here in a while but I can give you my 2 Canadian cents. We have the CMS unimax and have had it for almost 4 years now.

The machine has been great for us and our operation. Before the machine we were doing 1 maybe 2 kitchens a day. With the machine and 3 full time shop personel we are now doing 3-4 sometimes 5 kitchens a day when we really push production. We mix the procedures based on efficiency so the machine sometimes just cut slabs, other times just shaping and finish polishing by hand and other times from start to final polish all on the machine. Mind you, we also have a bridge saw that we use as well to keep other jobs going while the machine does its thing.

I agree with Scott in that the ease and speed of the software makes all the difference in the world. My programmer can program a slab in minutes (as long as the digital files are cleaned up to final size).

I also agree with Mr. Riccolo in that adding a second shift with a fabrication center is a great solution to adding more sqft. We added a partial second shift and have 1 guy come in part time from 3-7 oclock to squeeze another kitchen in.

[Todd Luster]

I got rod of my bridge saw when I put in my UFC, so yes most all of my cutting for last 4 years has been done on my UFC.
I do have a a few Achilli job site sawa, so at times when we have a lot of repetitive work on Commercial Jobs it gets set up.
Fire the most part, now tho I'd rather saw it on the UFC because it's so fast.

I agree and support Dans comment obviously and cant disagree with Scott's on an extra saw if you have the extra space and or money. Get one of everything when you can, but that takes time usually.

[BrentP]

We're getting a bit faster every week with it. It's still faster right now for us to cut most jobs on the bridge saw and mostly just use the fabcenter for routering. We utilize the saw on the UFC for complex layouts, Slabsmith jobs, and some repetitive layouts. For those of you with a fabcenter, do you have any suggestions to get the most out of the machine and utilize it more efficiently?

[GuyboR]

It's still faster right now for us to cut most jobs on the bridge saw

When the fabcenter is used as a saw and is cutting...what are you doing during that time?...another task
When the saw is being run manually and cutting what are you doing?....cutting

The advantage of automation is to allow you to do multiple things at the same time. My main person in the shop runs both our cnc saw and router. He can actually do THREE things at once....so he is worth three people to me. (Dan....don't tell Carlos that, or he'll ask for three checks every Friday. )

[PoseidonMachinery]

A fabcenter type machine will give you cutting and profiling, however, a saw and a CNC will give you more production power as Dan R said. Also, something to take into consideration as others have mentioned, when the machine is cutting, it's a saw. When it's profiling, it's a CNC. In between, there is unloading and loading.

Now, if you have area constraints, a 1 table machine like a fabcenter is a good option. If you would like to have the capability all in one machine, another good alternative is a 5 Axis CNC machine center that has a strong structure and horsepower on the spindle. A true heavy-duty 5 Axis can handle a large blade diameter and double as a 5 Axis CNC saw and a "fabcenter". It's even better when you can get a dual table model, if you have the space. It will take up about 21' wide by 23' long. This model has a table on 1 side specifically for use as a CNC saw and the other table is only for using the machine as a profiling center. This enables one to load pieces on 1 side while the machine is working on the other, thus, significantly increasing efficiency as loading and unloading times throughout a shift accounts for a lot of downtime.

I believe Breton and Denver make a machine like this as well. I have not seen any other models like this from other companies yet.

[Dan R.]

Every 5 axis saw with a cone adapter can be a fab center.

CMS/Brembana makes a slick one bed fab center with raising/lowering pods. No unloading, just saw and then profile.

[PoseidonMachinery]

Exactly. Which is the model CMS makes?

[GuyboR]

Exactly. Which is the model CMS makes?

I think they call it the VNT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJBiIm_kS48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-giBqs-O7aM

[scott m]

I would keep the bridge saw. Think overcuts and simple rectangular jobs and no programming. Some jobs just make more sense to cut on the saw. It will open up way way more capacity. I never had the space and just had an Emmedue saw that was a total PITA, but had a small footprint and we beat the hell out of it.

As far as any coned machine with 4 axis can be a Fabcenter, that is true and false. Try fabcentering a slab with no automatic program and you will want to kill yourself.

I ran and helped design the breton machine and at the time it was the only one you could cut on pods and use a fingerbit while cutting as well as a saw or just cut on foam CNC saw style. This allowed for almost sawjet type nested layouts and very little waste. Also after a part was cut we would simply float it out to a corner of the table so the overcuts on the next part would not be an issue, then float it back into position for routering. I used to do alot by myself and didn't want to have to move crap around. Put on a full slab with the vacuum lifter, take off finished parts. THis was good because I would usually stay late and run a slab while I was programming. I would leave the slab on the pods when I was done, all ready for the guys to come in and take them off in the am. Never had a single issue with the floating pods or parts moving, the double sides neoprene pods are far superior to the regular o ring on the bottom blicks. I still think it is the best machine for doing what I wanted to do, but no Fabcenter is a production machine. Expect to get 4 slabs in a normal day cut and routered, no more on that machine. If the machine had a weakness it was the saw cuts pretty slow. Cant remember the speed, but not anything like a bridge saw or cnc saw or even the saw on the 138. I found a really thin great blade, that made it twice as fast as most other blades which made a huge difference and it would not have a problem with tan brown and such.

Also run an entire kitchen of two slabs without ever setting a single tool path. Just tell it what profile you want on which edge and it figures out how to cut and profile it. It does take a bit of time to program a full job with vein matching though which was most of our jobs.

Once you get good at it, which takes some time you really figure out the best way to process each slab. For example, we used to leave a backsplash attached to the part. We would router it, run the z on it and when we took it off, chuck it on the bridge saw and cut off the splash.....Solves lots of issues with overcuts, grain matching, less parts, less pods, etc.....

I just don't know why anyone who buys a new cnc will not get it in fabcenter trim. yes, the saw and software are more, but not that much more and it opens up so many possibilities. I did like 30 round tables for a restauraunt all by myself. V profile. It took my like 15 minutes to program it. I just used the same program for each slab. I put the pods on, the slab hit go. Took a hammer and removed the waste and the wood blocks that supported it.(not much do to tight nest) floated the parts and went all the way to polish. Then vacuumed off finished tables which went out the door with no further processing(and I gauged the edges). I then washed the table, floated the pods back to original position and put on next slab repeat. This will always be in my mind one of the coolest things I ever did with it. Now a waterjet would have been cool too, but I didn't have one.
Full backsplashes are a dream as well, Similar to doing them on a sawjet. Template with proliner, vein match on the software, put on and hit go. All outlets cut and Fit like a glove every time.

I always wondered how the CMS machine would work out. If I were designing a machine today, it would be similar to that, however with floating pods and a bigger table. Never had faith in the raising pod idea, pretty sure I came up with that idea as well as cutting on foam. The floating pods seemed more practical. Foam is the bomb for underlayment on a fabcenter.

Ok, thats my rant. As you can tell, I have way too much free time these days. 4 months off 3 left to go!!!!!!

[PoseidonMachinery]

I must say that I agree with Scott. A fabcenter type machine is not the best for high production. There are many other machines in the same price range that can produce more or combinations of equipment in the same price range that will definitely produce more.

[Dan R.]

High production is only one consideration in a purchase decision.

[PoseidonMachinery]

Absolutely Dan! A fabcenter would be good for space constraints of course and if 1 operator wishes to do a lot on one machine.

[Dan R.]

Or to give a small shop the full advantage of digital production.
Or for easily expandable manufacturing capacity. Simply add more shifts, not fixed costs.
Or......

[Dan R.]

......

I just don't know why anyone who buys a new cnc will not get it in fabcenter trim. yes, the saw and software are more, but not that much more and it opens up so many possibilities.......

I always wondered how the CMS machine would work out. If I were designing a machine today, it would be similar to that, however..........!

Is this the same Scott M. Who was the Harbor Freight King? Who constantly shop for the cheapest price and if once debated the merits of converting a grinder to variable speed? is this the same Scott M.?

The CMS VNT works to this day. They have had that technology for many years in their larger automated saw lines.

[scott m]

You mean the same guy who bought a 340K fabcenter?????? Yes it is. The best top polisher I ever had was harbor freight. Lasted like 4 years and during that time they stopped making them....The famous orange knuckle grinder in all my videos of the day. However, I can say that I never killed my makita replacement though.

That was not me, that was the famous "dimmer switch".....LOL


re VNT Never said it did not work.

You can cut a whole slab with a hand grinder too, but that doesn't mean it is the best way to do it.

IF you've layed out 100's of slabs with 30 pods, you might understand.

[Dan R.]

Kasco, Sorry about the dimmer switch mix up.
Just giving a report on the VNT, not trying to make anyone wrong.

Yeah, the same guy that spent $340k of a fabcenter. I just see a lot of irony there. Maybe it is just me.

All kidding aside, Scott is one of the smartest fabricators I have ever known.

[Mark Meriaux]

All kidding aside, Scott is one of the smartest fabricators I have ever known.

Scott may be the smartest..............he got out of fabricating and now works 9 months out of the year as proprietor of an RV resort!

[Dan R.]

My point exactly!

[Antonio Almonte]

Trust me, the VNT system works. We have been using it for years now.

The beauty of the CMS Unimax VNT is that it is also a full 5 axis cnc saw that cuts as fast as any cnc saw.

To increase production add more shifts. To increase production even more add another cnc router. Use the unimax in cnc saw mode to cut days worth of parts for the 2nd cnc router then use the unimax to do it's thing and saw, router and polish.

Another bonus, after a hard days work, the machine can pour me a cup of beer!

[dustinbraudway]

Yes it can

[scott m]

Antonio, miss ya bro!!!

Is there a video of that monster somewhere. I always wanted to see how that worked out. The video above is old, you would never be able to do most profiles on that part with 4 pods, where they are, there would need to be at least 6 large pods and near the edges. Just wondering what an actual job with 30 pods looks like or do you just CNC saw it.


Fabcenters allow a small shop to be 100% digital on first purchase. Its all you need to start out. The breton even had bridge saw mode. So if you want to cut something manual, just use the remote pendant and go to work--we didn't often, but the capability is there.

Then when you get a bit bigger buy the cnc saw or sawjet and now you can produce at least times more per shift (with more people of course)....

My point is that a fabcenter vs cnc is a minimal amount more in your monthly payment. It opens up a whole realm of capability. Mine came with the full inventory software and photo shooting stuff bretons slabsmith and fabmaster as well which is compatible with the other products. So you can just program the part and the machine figures out how to process it, doesn't matter which machine you send it to. No toolpathing, minimal programming.

If I were to do it all over again. My first purchase would be a used bridge saw and line polisher, then next new Fabcenter, then a cnc saw or sawjet if I needed to expand production.

OR I would buy a used bridge saw and line polisher and have two man teams that get paid by the sf to template fab and install and handle their own callbacks and pay a local shop with a cnc to do certain jobs. Also some sort of agreement on broken parts.....

But make no mistake, I won't do it again!!!!!.......

Thanks for the props mark and dan. For some, stone is life. For others there is life after stone. I only miss the SFA.

[ccullum]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCqU8Fttwcs