Having trouble with "non-difficult stones"

[Humphrga]

Hello,

I'm very new to the forum so I apologize if I do anything strangely.

My family owns a countertop company. We have been in business for 40 years and are a multi-million dollar company. A few years ago I convinced everyone we needed to get into stone work. Being a laminate and solid surface (corian) company before I warned them that much of our previous knowledge will not be applicable as stone is a very intricate material to work with. Turned out to be more so than i even imagined.

We have managed to do decent for ourselves and our stone department has really started to take off. However, we are having trouble with a few colors. I have been told by many people that colors like Uba Tuba are just awful and tend to break for no reason. Which is also our experience. But i have no heard much about these colors below.

The colors in colors in question are Colonial White and White Valley in particular. We were hoping to stock these colors but have had problems.

We had a standard 4" 3cm splash in the colonial white. They were carrying the splash upright and correct and it broke out of nowhere. We even put a "sink saver" on it (see link) and it broke WITH THE SINK SAVER.
https://i.imgur.com/pMm4Wko.jpg

We got in 3 slabs of White Valley and it was riddled with fissures and cracksn (see attached pictures). The bigger ones you can feel but some are inside the stone and cant be felt. I don't know how people can accurately bid jobs with this material as it seems like you would have no idea how you can get your yield out of the material. All three slabs were like this.

Our stone provider is a national company and has a high reputation. I find it hard to believe it would be the fault of the distributor.

Looking for advice on these colors or colors like them. Do you just big them accounting for extra slabs every time or is there something we can do or should be doing with troublesome colors.

[colin]

I feel your pain. I can sum my reply up in just a few words-Get used to it. Everything you are venting about is something every member of the SFA deals with, if not every day then certainly, every week. We rodded a 2 foot side splash earlier this week to keep it from falling apart again. "What a waste of time", you might say. I stopped saying that years ago. I advise you to join the SFA ASAP. We have all been there and we are happy to help.

[mark s]

Humphrga - your experience is not uncommon but the quality of the stone matters a LOT! 17 years ago when I started my business we had multiple failures of parts in Uba Tuba. I changed suppliers and the problem went away.

Cheap stone is rarely a bargain. Ditto for stone tooling.

+1 for join the SFA. It's the best value in the industry.

Mark in MN
retired

[Stone Guys]

This is why granite or marble cutouts should only be cut on site.
You will need to encapsulate the cutout area so not to spread dust throughout the home. Also use the appropriate breathing filtration and also an extraction system to the outside area.

We also use a water scrubber at the end of the extractor to eliminate the dust.

If you are using undermounted sink, we strongly suggest you glue them on in the factory, as this will allow transportation without cracking or breaking the granite rails.

Since you are use to laminate, corian only, stone is a completely different animal. All natural stone does not have the tensile strength and why it need to be carried upright, can not be flexed at all and can be a difficult material to work with if you do not have the knowledge.

[Dan R.]

This is why granite or marble cutouts should only be cut on site.
You will need to encapsulate the cutout area so not to spread dust throughout the home. Also use the appropriate breathing filtration and also an extraction system to the outside area.

We also use a water scrubber at the end of the extractor to eliminate the dust.

If you are using undermounted sink, we strongly suggest you glue them on in the factory, as this will allow transportation without cracking or breaking the granite rails.

Since you are use to laminate, corian only, stone is a completely different animal. All natural stone does not have the tensile strength and why it need to be carried upright, can not be flexed at all and can be a difficult material to work with if you do not have the knowledge.
[

Terrible advice. We install tops every day with sinks and hobs cut out of them. there is proper material handling tools available that work great. cutting opening in the house is unprofessional. How do you polish an undercount sink opening?

[Humphrga]

On top of polishing in the house looking a little unprofessional, new VA OSHA Code forbids any stone fabrication inside of a house, wet or dry even with proper ventilation. So fabrication has to be done in house and brought to the site.

[Stone Guys]

Undermount as you would are finished in the factory and attached, just saves the dramas at installation time of transporting the piece

I did not fully explain correctly as as you rightly have pointed out would be a OH&S nightmare. We drill cut the cutout and leave tags that can be cut on site. We have found it adds more stability to the granite/ marble for transportation.

[Andy Ross]

I tried attaching a sink in the shop when I first started out....dumbest procedure ever.

Fab in the shop...install the house. Don't mix the two.

[Humphrga]

We cut the hole in shop and install the sink in field

[Mark Meriaux]

On top of polishing in the house looking a little unprofessional, new VA OSHA Code forbids any stone fabrication inside of a house, wet or dry even with proper ventilation.

I'd be interested to see that information. Do you have the code or standard that I could reference?

[Ken Lago]

Osha is about the safety of the worker, they don't care about homeowners or their houses.

[Humphrga]

On top of polishing in the house looking a little unprofessional, new VA OSHA Code forbids any stone fabrication inside of a house, wet or dry even with proper ventilation.

I'd be interested to see that information. Do you have the code or standard that I could reference?
[

Im on the road now. Our shop and grounds supervisor is the one who does the research. I will see if i can find it when i get back.

[Kowboy]

I tried attaching a sink in the shop when I first started out....dumbest procedure ever.

Fab in the shop...install the house. Don't mix the two.
[

Back in my solid surface fabrication days, we always set sinks in the shop without a problem. Guys making what could have been field seams in the shop and carrying in giant tops? Now that was the dumbest procedure ever.

[Kowboy]

On top of polishing in the house looking a little unprofessional, new VA OSHA Code forbids any stone fabrication inside of a house, wet or dry even with proper ventilation.

I'd be interested to see that information. Do you have the code or standard that I could reference?
[

Mark:

There is an article in the Toolbox section of the March 2018 issue of the Journal of Light Construction which directly addresses your concerns. According to the author, Chris Ermides: (page 66) "To be compliant, no matter which blade you're using, and no matter if you're cutting indoors or outdoors, the rules require that the saw be equipped with an integrated water delivery system that feeds water continuously to the blade."

It's an excellent article; I highly recommend it.

[Mark Meriaux]

The JLC article gives a great overview OSHA compliance with the new Silica Construction Standard for all industries and also gives helpful information on some of the engineering controls that are available. It does not address my question regarding the claim that VA OSHA forbids stone fabrication inside of a dwelling.

I have not read any of the individual state OSHA variants, but am familiar with the new federal standard. As long as compliance steps and engineering controls are followed - whether they are LEV, water, respirators, or using guidelines from Table 1 - I have not read any limitation on where work is allowed to be conducted (or not).

[Alex_Bores]

I would think about Material handling from the start of fabrication. Are the slabs being stored properly? Are the pieces being cut to smaller pieces being handled appropriately?

I don't think there is a single person in this industry that hasn't had such problems. Where are you located? The reason I ask is maybe you should switch suppliers or bring in your own "higher" quality material. There are several here (SFA SPONSORS like Pacific Shore Stone) that can point you in the right direction. Ultimately, my guess is, I think you are seeing the effect of poor quality material.

Fabricating a sink inside the home I think is unprofessional and not needed. Sink savers are great but you can also over tighten the clamps and risk the integrity of the granite itself causing it to break. Had a piece years ago break seven times before it hit the house, a bordeaux material, terrible material.

Hope it changes for the better as we are in great times!

[Kowboy]

Fabricating a sink inside the home I think is unprofessional and not needed.
[

Alex:

My customers disagree:

IMG_7305.jpg (288.36KiB)Viewed 1006 times

IMG_7306.jpg (303.3KiB)Viewed 1006 times

http://www.countertopiq.com/2017/03/03/ ... -timeline/

[Dan R.]

That would be considered a repair.
2 completely different things.
Joe, quit trying to stir the pot.
We all know that you do repairs. Get a dog if you need more positive affirmation.

[Darryl Miller]

That would be considered a repair.
2 completely different things.
Joe, quit trying to stir the pot.
We all know that you do repairs. Get a dog if you need more positive affirmation.
[

x 2

Replacing a sink and fabbing one from start are not comparable