HELP PLEASE - Issues With Granite Installation

[matt rickard]

I'm very suspicious of the post by PT. Dude, in case you have not noticed, the people responding to the post are fabricators who own businesses who are well aware that there are 2 sides. Better than you, we know the stone, we know the issues and we know what is and is not acceptable. That company did not bring that stone to the customer's home to finish fabricating. They were trying to pass off hack work as being acceptable using the excuse that the stone is the problem.

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PT are you the owner of said company?[/quote]

My thoughts exactly Steven

[szw21]

I am neither the consumer nor an expert

So what are you then exactly?

Definitely the fabricator wouldn’t be in this business if they didn’t know the job or the stone

ummm...there are plenty of people who can be in business without knowing the job. Happens all the time. It all depends on many factors incuding price, what customers are willing to pay for, what level of work they are willing to accept etc.

personally I feel the kitchen sink looks ‘horrible’ looks right out of the garbage bin, did the fabricator provide the sink with the job?

I find it interesting that the only thing you think looks bad is the sink which apprently (I say apprently since it is not obvious from the initial post) was supplied by the customer.

Most people browing a website for the first time and with not much knowledge of stone are not going to sign up and express a stong opinion towards a matter like this - unless they have vested interest in the case at hand. I'm inclined to think you are the fabricator in question as some of the others have said.

[toronto_consumer]

Interestingly, I forwarded my "stone fabricator" some quotes from (and a link to) this thread. And then, magically, a stranger who has come here "just looking for some granite info" decides to post and be the "voice of reason"... with their first post on the board. Tell me, "PT", why was your first post on this thread instead of a post of your own requesting some "granite info"?

OK, "PT", let's just pretend for a minute that I (and everyone else here) don't know who you really are...
1 - We are not looking to get new stone at no cost. We love that stone and are heartbroken that the "fabricator" has ruined it. If a fabricator with some modicum of talent is able to fix it, we will definitely be keeping it. We offered you... I mean them the option to pick another stone that was acceptable to us which was more within the realm of their capabilities. But we weren't about to pay for the new stone when you... I mean they were the ones who screwed up the stone we picked in the first place. We offered the company several options to correct the situation. We actually allowed them back into our home to try to repolish the granite on-site - starting with the bathroom sink cutout... which was incredibly messy, unsuccessful, and as I have discovered, was toxic for my family (and the installers). We offered to let them take the granite back to their shop for repair, but not without the return of our deposit... they had already threatened to remove the granite from our home and keep our deposit. We offered to return the granite to them for a full refund and they would be able to wash their hands of us. We were more than reasonable.
2 - The sink is a Blanco Vision 210. Since you're not an expert, you probably don't know that Blanco is perhaps the top manufacturer of granite composite sinks. The sink is a drop-in sink that can be undermounted as well. The back lip had to be cut to fit our cabinetry, but luckily it turned out great and the sink was not damaged in the process. We happen to love the sink - sorry you don't. It's in great shape and will wash up real nice.
3 - Everybody on the thread agrees that the stone is difficult to work with... but they also all agree that this doesn't excuse the quality of the work.
4 - The job was not completed because we saw the results and instructed them not to mount the sinks until it was resolved. We actually had to have the installers remove the bathroom sink before the adhesive set. For the photos we held up the bathroom sink in its original position so viewers could see the effect of viewing the rough edges of the dark granite against the white porcelain.
5 - Unfortunately for us, two of the three pieces of granite have been affixed to the cabinetry. The only one that remains unaffixed is the one with the kitchen sink cutout.

I could go on, but I just feel so silly going along with this ruse... and the fine folks on this board don't need to be dragged into our little mess. (Although I'm guessing this is informative and somewhat entertaining for many of them - people who are good at their job and take pride in their work love hearing stories about no talent hacks that give their craft a bad name).

Perhaps one of the mods might want to let us know how many other threads on the board "PT" has viewed in his quest "for granite info". I bet that would be fun to look at.

[toronto_consumer]

Sorry... quick follow-up...

I should note that the slab over top of the kitchen sink is not affixed and is pulled out slightly from the wall, so the positioning of the sink in the cutout is not final. Just to be clear that the misalignment of the kitchen sink in the photos is not part of the workmanship issue. As far as I know, the sink did correctly line up with the cutout when the granite was in position.

[szw21]

Interestingly, I forwarded my "stone fabricator" some quotes from (and a link to) this thread.

I was wondering how he could have found the thread...now it's clear...

Not sure what use "PT"'s post is unless there is some magic formula which is going to make the "experts" on this site agree it is a good job. You really have to wonder about people sometimes.

[Anna Almonte]

PT!! please fill in your profile so we know who we are talking too.

[Ken Lago]

It still amaze me how the internet have enabled us to expose cheaters, liers and crooks in record time.

[Stone Dude]

The SFA exists as fabricators to help other fabricators. To help competitors and friends to become better at what they do. Many of us at one point or another did mediochre work because we didn't know any better. There is no shame, nothing wrong with that. The problem is when people have no interest, or no care to become better. No feeling of obligation or drive to help the consumers who spend their money (and lots of it) to have nice stone work put in their home. The other purpose of the SFA is to expose these people who simply do not want to improve, or do not care to offer a legitimate product so that they cannot continue fool consumers. Lastly, the SFA exists to educate consumers so they can do proper research and ask the right questions so they may feel confident they are hiring the right fabricator.

You have discovered the SFA under undesireable circumstances. You can continue to dig your hole, or suck it up and do the right thing.

[Anna Almonte]

Well said Cam,

The proof is in the photos and the project is horribly done from a fabrication stand point. If this fabricator did not know how to fabricate that material then they should have never had it their shop to begin with and to sell.

It's one thing to tell the customer that the material is hard to fabricate, but the Fabricator still needs to know how to fab it correctly and adjust the price accordingly. IMO

[Mark Gamble]

PT...if you are not a consumer and not a fabricator, then what the hell do you know about good and bad work? How would you understand what is acceptable or not. Anyone that know this industry would say that work is the craftsmanship of someone who does not care about anything but getting a paycheck, not giving a damn about quality or anything close to it. How does a first time poster even think about the questions you asked without knowing something of the trade?

[toronto_consumer]

The SFA exists as fabricators to help other fabricators. To help competitors and friends to become better at what they do. Many of us at one point or another did mediochre work because we didn't know any better. There is no shame, nothing wrong with that. The problem is when people have no interest, or no care to become better. No feeling of obligation or drive to help the consumers who spend their money (and lots of it) to have nice stone work put in their home. The other purpose of the SFA is to expose these people who simply do not want to improve, or do not care to offer a legitimate product so that they cannot continue fool consumers. Lastly, the SFA exists to educate consumers so they can do proper research and ask the right questions so they may feel confident they are hiring the right fabricator.

You have discovered the SFA under undesirable circumstances. You can continue to dig your hole, or suck it up and do the right thing.

I'd like to applaud what Cameron has said here. I'm in a service industry myself, so I'm not an unreasonable person who expects perfection from suppliers. That being said, the service industry is almost as much about how you handle your (hopefully infrequent) screw-ups as it is about trying not to screw up at all.

A while back my company produced an interactive CD-ROM for a client that went to mass duplication and was shipped to thousands of individuals around the world. After shipping, it was discovered that the video of one of the key managers in the company had his name spelled incorrectly. We took the initiative and had an entire new run duplicated, had them shipped out, went through the effort of ensuring that all of the incorrect versions were destroyed, and apologized humbly to the client and directly to the manager with the misspelled name. And, of course, we ate the cost - and it was a valuable lesson that improved our error checking processes going forward. Guess what - they're still a client today after all those years.

It's about doing the right thing. Some people just don't get that.

[t-mobile]

Well spoken Cam!!!
Toronto-consumer. Your are correct, as this is slightly humorous!

PT,
As stated, many of us had problems earlier in our career. Mistakes are only mistakes if you keep making them. Its ok that you messed up on this job, but to keep your honor you should rectify the problem! Handle this professionally then spend $250 and get allied with the SFA! We will educate you so that you can deal with these problem stones sucessfully.

Or keep being a Jackarse and let your reputation and your business fail! This consumer sounds like the most reasonable client that one could ask for!

Bottom line:
1) The work is WELL below any relm of acceptable!
2) the consumer has many options for expert opinions in court

Your move

[Chris Mills]

Of course the guy was done fabbing it. Who, in thier right mind, brings a counter in to a house that is not finished with the idea to finish it on site? Please, PT, the job is a disgrace regardless of the stone being a VERY difficult one to work with, nevermind the outstanding customer service the "company" has. None of us know anyone involved. We are all basing our opinions on what we were given, pictures and the customers version. If they are tainted, we won't know for sure. Like the others said, the pictures speak for themselves!

[PT]

I am the odd one out (which is very uncommon in forums - it is surprising that everybody has the same opinion..........is that not suspicious???) making me the villian of the story, well I am a law student and I was looking for granite info for my case project of 'fumes emanating from granite countertops'. I am not here to judge anybody but my profession forces me to think from different angles. Ironically, each one of you has done exactly what you are accusing me of doing.............judging. You have judged the work to be 'horrible' and held the fabricator 'guilty'. In what way have you helped.........well you have all provided 'support statements' for the legal case, if there is one.
That is because the consumer came to you 'first' for 'help', tell me honestly if the fabricator had come to you 'first' for 'help' showing how he tried to do a good job however the consumer was trying to be difficult, I wonder who would have had the support.
Well I found the info I was looking for, I did get into forums for the info, now thinking of it, I should have posted my queries here and seen what you would have come up with.

[szw21]

I am the odd one out (which is very uncommon in forums - it is surprising that everybody has the same opinion..........is that not suspicious???) making me the villian of the story, well I am a law student and I was looking for granite info for my case project of 'fumes emanating from granite countertops'. I am not here to judge anybody but my profession forces me to think from different angles. Ironically, each one of you has done exactly what you are accusing me of doing.............judging. You have judged the work to be 'horrible' and held the fabricator 'guilty'. In what way have you helped.........well you have all provided 'support statements' for the legal case, if there is one.
That is because the consumer came to you 'first' for 'help', tell me honestly if the fabricator had come to you 'first' for 'help' showing how he tried to do a good job however the consumer was trying to be difficult, I wonder who would have had the support.
Well I found the info I was looking for, I did get into forums for the info, now thinking of it, I should have posted my queries here and seen what you would have come up with.

So what kind of "fumes" come out of granite countertops then?

If you were really here for this info it probably would have been better to start a thread asking a question about what you are researching rather than to comment on a thread that has no relevance to what you came for in the first place. Makes no sense.

[toronto_consumer]

I am the odd one out (which is very uncommon in forums - it is surprising that everybody has the same opinion..........is that not suspicious???) making me the villian of the story, well I am a law student and I was looking for granite info for my case project of 'fumes emanating from granite countertops'. I am not here to judge anybody but my profession forces me to think from different angles. Ironically, each one of you has done exactly what you are accusing me of doing.............judging. You have judged the work to be 'horrible' and held the fabricator 'guilty'. In what way have you helped.........well you have all provided 'support statements' for the legal case, if there is one.
That is because the consumer came to you 'first' for 'help', tell me honestly if the fabricator had come to you 'first' for 'help' showing how he tried to do a good job however the consumer was trying to be difficult, I wonder who would have had the support.
Well I found the info I was looking for, I did get into forums for the info, now thinking of it, I should have posted my queries here and seen what you would have come up with.

A law student? "Case project"? Really?? If I weren't washing my dishes in a laundry sink right now, this would almost be funny.

Listen, Art Vandelay, Attorney at Law, you might want to read this quote from my original post:

"Please take a look at some of the pictures linked below and tell me if perhaps I'm being unreasonable? Given the material, should I really only expect this level of smoothness and evenness? ... You all are the experts, and if the consensus here and amongst other local fabricators I plan to contact is that the work is acceptable, then I'll suck it up and pay the guy. But I've never in all my years seen any granite counters that looked anything like this."

I wasn't exactly going out of my way to sway anyone against their will, not that this group is liable to be swayed anyhow.

But thanks "PT"... every time I have have moments of self doubt, where I wonder if maybe I'm being too picky or too closed-minded about this issue, you post a message on here and make me realize that I am simply dealing with people with no moral compass - that I am truly in the right.

And to the SFA members on this board, this is why what you're doing as an organization is worthwhile. This is a shining example of what you strive not to be.

[coolhandchris]

I am the odd one out (which is very uncommon in forums - it is surprising that everybody has the same opinion..........is that not suspicious???) making me the villian of the story, well I am a law student and I was looking for granite info for my case project of 'fumes emanating from granite countertops'. I am not here to judge anybody but my profession forces me to think from different angles. Ironically, each one of you has done exactly what you are accusing me of doing.............judging. You have judged the work to be 'horrible' and held the fabricator 'guilty'. In what way have you helped.........well you have all provided 'support statements' for the legal case, if there is one.
That is because the consumer came to you 'first' for 'help', tell me honestly if the fabricator had come to you 'first' for 'help' showing how he tried to do a good job however the consumer was trying to be difficult, I wonder who would have had the support.
Well I found the info I was looking for, I did get into forums for the info, now thinking of it, I should have posted my queries here and seen what you would have come up with.

Riiiiiiight. Mods, can you check his IP and find the location? If it is in toronto........

[Brian_Stone]

tell me honestly if the fabricator had come to you 'first' for 'help' showing how he tried to do a good job however the consumer was trying to be difficult, I wonder who would have had the support.

If the fabricator had come here first and posted the same pictures he would have been questioned on why he would even attempt to install a product that looked that horrible. People would have then given suggestions on what to do to fix the horrible work. That discussion is going on in the members only section.

[ash20ash]

If hes not the fabber, then this must be Kowboy in disguise

Or both????????????????????

PT. You should just come clean dude. I'm an idiot and read right through your first post and could tell who it was. Law students are way better than this.

Take the time your waisting right now on making up lies and spend it on learning here, or somewhere else.


Maybe its Kowboys son or somthing

[steven nenzel]

Chris, this dude is way beyond our help. His does not fit the mold of an SFAer nor do we want these types of characters in our midst. With his attitude and behavior he won't be in business for long.

[barbianj]

Totally not Kowboy. He does better work. It's Al.

toronto_consumer, I hope you get your problems resolved.

[Mark Gamble]

PT, I personally went to see this "mess" and it is my opinion that if you can cut or nick your skin on some of these filled areas, then it is not safe to have in a home with children. When you can see how non straight that almost every profiled line in the entire job without a straight edge, is it a good job worth around $4000? Would you want to pay that money from your pocket to have nothing but bumps and ridges in the edges? Does that sound like quality work to you? The company I started with in this industry was even better than this work and they had 1/8" thick lam seams. This fabricator shows the knowledge by the way they did the lam seams, but did not show any care or craftsmanship with anything else. Why would a fabricator send in and unqualified person to fix a sink opening only to make it worse than it was? If you can answer these questions, we may be able to see it as you do, but I am skeptical of that. Besides, aren't law students supposed to have their facts straight before accusing the professionals trying to help people? Or are some law students just as jaded as some of the granite "professionals" out there and prey on the uneducated? Again, this is my sole opinion.

[t-mobile]

BaHaaaHaHahaAHhaaa

Fumes? I think your on to something, like quit huffing the fumes from the glue you stuck in those holes in the stone.

You are not picked to be a villan in a story, BECAUSE this is not a story!!!!!!!! Its real fricken life WITH pictures!

Dude, own up to it! It only gets worse from here!

[toronto_consumer]

If anyone out there has any sample photos of work they've done using "Matrix" granite that they are willing to share, I would really appreciate it. Detail photos of the edges and cutouts would be ideal. Thanks!

[Burkie]

Condescending and arrogance will win no favours.

Facts are facts and the truth is the truth. The reason that everyone is saying the same thing is that no matter how many times you look at it the sky will still be blue. I take deference to your slashing ( bordering on defaming) the character of the individuals on this forum without substance. Most of them I know personally.

You appear to have an agenda. Most of the guys on here have an agenda as well, which is to improve the standard of the industry. Jobs like this waste valuable time of people like Mark and stereotypes the rest of us like the fabricator on this job. If this customers first experience was like this, do you think that they will consider doing it again? I always remember my first time, Do you? The old adage applies "you dont have a second chance to make a first impression."

"Fumes in granite" and law student, will imply that you appear to have chosen the ambulance chaser career path. I have a personal disdain for moral and ethical ineptitude.

Better is a poor person who walks in his integrity than one who is crooked in speech and is a fool.

Regards