Finally taking the next step. Buying CNC. Need help choosing

[jbergman]

I have been traveling for a while, so I kind of left this post slip by, but here goes:

Remember Jan from Norway? Jan got the whole fab center thing started. His CNC was an Omag, and they have been making fab center type of machines before most builders were even in the CNC business. One company in MN is now putting in their 6th Omag. There are many excellent manufacturers, and a few bummers. Fortunately I have not seen any of the later mentioned in this post. How many kitchens a week are you making, and what is the average size? Do you anticipate (realistically) any carving work? My guess is that a dual table machine is not required. Please look closely at the software, some is a lot easier to learn and use than others. Besides machine support, is software support available? Omag and CMS use Easy Stone, and there is a very experienced, and good, Easy Stone person here -- Jerry Kidd. If you are looking primarily at used equipment, please get someone qualified to give a detailed look prior to any purchase. I would recommend Arthur Plicht of AMC Stone, Tucson AZ, 917-407-5451. Arthur doesn't sell machinery, but I believe that he is the best in the business when it comes to CNC's. One final thing: Please be sure that you have a clear title to any used equipment. More than one firm has been burnt badly.

John Bergman
Bergman-Blair Machine Corp / Salem Stone
Prescott, AZ
928-443-1100

[BlackPearlGranite]

i'm not an expert on cnc machines we have two intermac machines i don't have a problem with how they run they have been good to us so far we bought a new one and also a used one from the stated but i will tell you that their service is terrible it's hard to get ahold of anyone and it always taked forever to get the problem solved, so for my experience i wouldn't go with the intermac just based on the service i have received...good luck on your search

[dustinbraudway]

John,

Your correct that Jan brought up the point that he is a one man show using his 4 axis machine as a fab center and thus between him and Scott and probably NW the concept came about. but...............

lets be serious. Alot of people have been using 4 axis machines long before the concept and machines now to cut up full slabs and process them.

CMS has had a 4 axis saw on their machines for a long time as well correct?

[coolhandchris]

John,

Your correct that Jan brought up the point that he is a one man show using his 4 axis machine as a fab center and thus between him and Scott and probably NW the concept came about. but...............

lets be serious. Alot of people have been using 4 axis machines long before the concept and machines now to cut up full slabs and process them.

CMS has had a 4 axis saw on their machines for a long time as well correct?

Jan's machine is a 3axis, I believe.

[Nick]

Jans is 4 axis, but it is ISO 40, I believe

Lets keep it real with fabcenter origins.

All machine companies had the technology to make them. Jan used a machine in a manner that was not the manufacturers intention. Scott/Jan people saw that fabricators, mainly US fabricators, were interested in this kind of machine. Manufacturers responded by producing them and using MOSTLY old technolgy in a new way.

[jbergman]

I do not mean to hijack Randyds' thread and go off on a fab center tangent, however there is some misinformation here. Jan was the first to my knowledge to use his CNC exclusively as a fab center. His machine however does not have a seperate sawing head, it uses a sawing attachment loaded through the tool magazine. It is a three axis machine with a tilting head controlled by an m function. (A number of companies refer to this as a 4th axis, but technically that is not correct.) CMS also used the same general concept, but I believe got a later start. Omag however has been building CNC's with seperate sawing heads and router spindles for almost 20 years. For example I sold one in the mid 1990's to a firm in Redwood City, CA. The standard market for such equipment was architectural work not kitchens, but many kitchens were made on this machine. It is still running on limestone in MN.

Now more importantly to Randyds. We can argue forever about the types of tool holders, tool wear compensation methodology, electro vs belt driven spindles, software and so forth. Everyone has their strong points, and just about everybody makes fine machines. The things to really keep in mind are: how soon can I hit the ground running, this depends on training; and do I really have enough work to justify such an investment? It is my firm belief that if you do not process around 75-100 square feet per day, unless you get a super bargain, it will be difficult to justify the investment. Technology is great, but it is not an end to itself, it has to make you money.

John Bergman

[ash20ash]

It is my firm belief that if you do not process around 75-100 square feet per day, unless you get a super bargain, it will be difficult to justify the investment. Technology is great, but it is not an end to itself, it has to make you money.

John Bergman

Great point here. if your under those numbers. A good used one is the way to go. Buy one from 40-60,000 (machine only) and use your saw to cut blanks.
We are doing....................120 a week. sometime more. 2 guys myself included. and and office girl. Not setting the world on fire, but we have potential to grow. Good thing.

Anyway. There are plenty of good deals out there on used stuff. Just be patient. It took me 6 months to find the right one. And so far its the best thing I have done.

Technoligy is great!. But sometimes older technoligy does the same thing. Just a lil bit slower, but it works all the same.

BUY SMART.

[wiredog70]

I have worked with Northwood on the Sawjet and Park with their velocity and yukon. As far as CNC's I have work exclusively on CMS Concepts 1400, 1700, 2.1 and 2.84. Love them and Easystone. I am an operator and programmer. I believe they just quit their charging for phone support. If you machine is less than 3 yrs old you get 24 hr phone support and over 3 yrs you have 9-5 FREE phone supprt. Big plus in my book when you run into a problem unless you want a tech on call $$$$$. Yes software and service/support is the big money eater aside from the initial purchase.

[scott m]

Regarding fabcenters there is a few things that should be known.

1. They are not a production machine....you can produce way more with a 3 axis cnc and a bridge saw.
2. They are another way of skinning a cat.
3. The 3 models available are very different depending on your needs.
4. You don't simply just "throw on a slab" and magically you have parts. It is still work like every other way of cutting stone.

Now, that being said, in my mind there is no better way for a small shop to produce stone. It will save you so much labor in the long term over other arrangments on the breton or the cms as material handling and programming is significantly reduced. To me you have to put on a slab and take off finished parts, or just buy a cnc saw and cnc for half the price.

It sounds like to me you should buy a 3 axis cnc cheap. Make sure when you find something, you post here for opinions. You can get in so much trouble by making the wrong decision. It will be the backbone of your operation and anything that happens to it will happen to your whole company. It has to be reliable.

Everyone here will cheerlead for whatever machine they own. I can only tell you that the only thing that is certain is some of us are wrong and some of us are right. Which ones is up for you to decide. They all make stone in the long run, but how many calls you have to make to service and how many parts you need to buy are the difference.

Also, chris said it. SOFTWARE IS HUGE.....glance at the machine and study the software.......make sure it has a key.

[Todd Luster]

Randy.............
Where did you go?

[Randyds]

Thanks for all the input guys. I have been reading everything posted. But, i havent been able to post anything becauseour shop has got slammed these last two weeks and I have barley seen my wife or little girl, (you will never hear me complain about having too much work though:)) I feel like researching this cnc machine has taken over my life I have been looking at various sites for machines. One site in particular, usedstoneequipment.com, has some package deals where you buy the used cnc you also get instillation, some tooling, training and either a 6 or 12 month warranty included.

Do I need this warranty? Does this warranty mean that the machine must be in good condition or they would not offer one? Or am I just better off buying a used machine that is still under power, so that I can check it out and hire a factory trained technician for the day to take a look at the machine? My last question is, should I hire a factory trained technician to de-install, install and train me. Or can I save a little money and hire an independent cnc guy?

Also I found a good deal on a 2009 Denver quota that is brand new and still comes with a warranty. No one has mentioned this machine yet so I'm not sure what kind of reputation for service or performance it has. Anyone have any experience with this machine?

Bottom line is, from reading everyones most helpful posts, I think I can't go wrong with a brembana, park, north wood, Brenton, or omag. So my focus is to get a machine that i can inspect under power, has a key, has software that I can still get assistance with (for instance park has switched to alpha cam with the newer machines), and get it at a price under 100k (for machine only because I figure I will need another 30k for instillation, training, tooling ect.)

[Nick]

Bottom line is, from reading everyones most helpful posts, I think I can't go wrong with a brembana, park, north wood, Brenton, or omag. So my focus is to get a machine that i can inspect under power, has a key, has software that I can still get assistance with (for instance park has switched to alpha cam with the newer machines), and get it at a price under 100k (for machine only because I figure I will need another 30k for instillation, training, tooling ect.)

You can go wrong with anything if you don't buy right, but those would be your major players. You said the key thing, which is the 30 grand in reserve to move, install train and restore. That is smart.

[Rick George]

Randy,
Most of this advice has been excellent. I bought a NW fabcenter last summer and am able to produce about 500 sq ft/week with no overtime on it. Northwood has been good to work with... Robbie's knowledge is priceless!

All this being said, the fabcenter machines are new technology that will cost more. If you have a bridge saw already, I'd add a good used cnc and overcut on bridge saw as others have mentioned. This method will keep you in the budget that you are talking about. There are still some excellent used cnc's available at good prices. Keep getting the word out there and the deals will be brought to you! Ger with Breton is always a wealth of knowledge on new and used cnc's available as many others are out there.

[coolhandchris]

Thanks for all the input guys. I have been reading everything posted. But, i havent been able to post anything becauseour shop has got slammed these last two weeks and I have barley seen my wife or little girl, (you will never hear me complain about having too much work though:)) I feel like researching this cnc machine has taken over my life I have been looking at various sites for machines. One site in particular, usedstoneequipment.com, has some package deals where you buy the used cnc you also get instillation, some tooling, training and either a 6 or 12 month warranty included.

Do I need this warranty? Does this warranty mean that the machine must be in good condition or they would not offer one? Or am I just better off buying a used machine that is still under power, so that I can check it out and hire a factory trained technician for the day to take a look at the machine? My last question is, should I hire a factory trained technician to de-install, install and train me. Or can I save a little money and hire an independent cnc guy?

Also I found a good deal on a 2009 Denver quota that is brand new and still comes with a warranty. No one has mentioned this machine yet so I'm not sure what kind of reputation for service or performance it has. Anyone have any experience with this machine?

Bottom line is, from reading everyones most helpful posts, I think I can't go wrong with a brembana, park, north wood, Brenton, or omag. So my focus is to get a machine that i can inspect under power, has a key, has software that I can still get assistance with (for instance park has switched to alpha cam with the newer machines), and get it at a price under 100k (for machine only because I figure I will need another 30k for instillation, training, tooling ect.)

Depends on the independent guy. If you get a brembana and need tooling, I would contact Eric Pate. He knows both extremely well. When I got my Omag, I hired an independent guy. But now he is Omag North America. Jerry Kidd.

[Cevin Moberly]

Randy,

I bought the CMS Unimax. Here http://forum.stonefabricatorsalliance.c ... =53&t=2262 with the VNT system.

This is the only machine at the moment that can process a slab from start to finish without human intervention. When I was looking at machines I was at the same thoughts as you with regards to human intervention. The unimax is also a 5 axis machine with a 40 hp spindle. There is nothing the machine can't do.

We are having a workshop this June and you are welcome to come and see it in action for yourself. http://www.stonefabricatorsalliance.com ... icle&id=50

Good luck.

this is the better page

http://forum.stonefabricatorsalliance.c ... =53&t=4506

[Michael Reis-Stone World]

I don't mean to interrupt here, but man, this is a good thread.

I'm just saying.

(PS: I know it isn't for publication. Just passing along some kudos.)

[ChrisYaughn]

You can also go wrong if you are not FULLY committed to seeing the process thru to the other side. Hopefully you'll get a machine with no hidden issues, but you have to be ready to work thru problems if they occur.

That goes for new and used machines.

[Brian Briggs]

Michael
This would be a good question for you to do in Stone World

[Ger Vanderbas]

Rick,

Thanks for the honorable mention. I really do appreciate it.

There are a multitude of choices in this current market.

I suggest the following: Treat your purchase like another important tool. That's what it is.

It isn't a kitchen printing press or a cash register.

The first step is clearly understanding your expectations of the machine, and understanding the capabilities
How much support am I going to need. Can I get it from this builder? Ask the question, get specifics.

What is my budget? Can I buy something that meets my expectations in that range?

Did I budget for installation costs if any, building preparation, rigging? Do I have the proper power and air?

Am I prepared for those costs?

If it's used, did I build something in my budget for potential issues? Have I seen/heard the machine?

Am I comfortable with cad/cam, or will I need hand holding?
How much can I really expect to produce from it? Is this within the growth plans I have?

Don't ask the "how many kitchens" question. You'll get some pretty silly pie in the sky answers.
What can you bank on, day in day out. Get it in feet. Verify it.

Like most other things just make sure you have a clear understanding of what you expect in advance, do your homework, and you are more likely to end up with something that meets or exceeds your expectations of performance, reliability, and support.

Once the technology is in the house, NO one wants to go backwards unless they buy a dog, or something not really capable of meeting the expectations, and perhaps from a company not able to.