CNC Saw Software Wars

[graniteman]

Do any of you offer training seminars? I know NW offered a week long class that was free, you just signed up and paid your own travel/hotel expenses. It was valuable to us when we wanted to train new people the basics.

[Ger Vanderbas]

Make a video of somebody drawing a kitchen with all the annoying details (notches, bump outs, scribes, electrical outlet cutouts, etc..) that come with a kitchen on a touch pad faster than doing it in cad with a keyboard and mouse and I will make you a golden trophy and present it to you at stone expo. You can take a picture and I will hang it on my wall in my office and post it here to remind me of your awesomeness. (I will surrender to you ) Declare the war won.

Mark,

I'm being as friendly as possible. To be sure I'm not here for your assignments. I mentioned rather clearly how we do things for demonstration purposes, and it was quite clear you were painting things as you vs. me. I'm not interested in a war, I'm well past that stage in my life.

Does anyone here really expect after seeing the video above that drawing a kitchen with annoying details would be difficult with Breton Software? If you paid attention I said that things were done on a Rhinocad platform. I was clear that you were seeing the touch screen version on the machine. Do you think though that I would want these gestures to draw? Did I say something like that?

I'm going to step out of this post now because it's becoming annoying and I'm busy. Challenge someone else. We're also not the only games in town. The video posted is what I have for video. Anyone needing more may have a demo.

The front end of the software is quite the same as what you see here so very easy to hand gesture through pages of programs, files, pictures, but of course when drawing sitting at the desk, you use a mouse. Touch screens still allow you to do that, but I'm not sure...Maybe Mark knows better. We have never designed a cad program before.



G

[BellaTerra]

Ger, I too have to say that was a great video. Great looking software. It's actually more along the lines of what I thought software would look like on a $100k+ piece of equipment.

If you come across any other videos please share them.

[Mark Lauzon]

Damn it Ger...I wanted to really wanted to see that touch screen programing video and make you a trophy. I'm with you on this conversation getting long in the tooth. See you in Vegas.

Colby, good luck with whatever you choose...If you want to come out to Oregon next week, you are invited.

[BellaTerra]

Thank you guys for sharing videos of your software they are much appreciated.

As for long in the tooth, no offense but I'd like to hear from the other software makers.

Donatoni, Denver and any others who'd like to get a video of their software on here would be great.

[HELIOS ITALY]

Dear All,

we are new here, but old in the stone processing technologies.

We have got a very easy software developed directly by our engineers, specific for the best cutting processes.

If you want to make an idea, please have a look below:

http://www.heliosautomazioni.com/en/sof ... touch.html

[DavidL]

I believe on Dan's Eagle the saw rinses the slab automatically before the vac does its thing.

Ken - You are correct. Also the vacuum movement is a touch of a button for automatic movements. No redraw or toolpath. No idea on any other brand of machine. Can only speak for the GMM. And I've never hopped up on the table to break the parts apart before doing so. I know there would be a time when I might need to, based on a drawing Guy and his brother sent me, but, I've not done it in production yet. I will say that I have "reached" up onto the table with a small breaker bar and popped loose the pieces where we have done double cuts to free the stone up before unloading the table. Have not needed to do it with a vacuum movement.

I love the software side of all of this. As Scott had mentioned, the software makes the machine.

[RB Design]

We have two different brand of machines both with easy stone software. Very quick and simple to learn and also very powerful as far as what can be done. Never ran the others, I'm sure they are all sufficient once you learn them. Programming either the saw or the router is quick enough that our operators are able to program next cycle while the machines process the pieces on the table.

"We have two different brand of machines" What brand machines are they? Sounds like the software for them is simple to learn. I can learn the software easy enough in the office but it is at the machine that I am concerned about. I want it user friendly at the machine.

[RB Design]

The 'Donald Trump' of Stone Fabricators Alliance.

Who could I be talking about? Stop with the antagonizing jabs. Just give me the facts about your company and why you are the best solution. Let us, the fabricator, make informed decisions on what solutions work for us. Leave the noise out!

Ray

[Dan R.]

Ray, lighten up a bit. You have 5 posts in the public area. You do not even fully know the depth of info available here.
The real info is in the member area.

ps: I like Donald Trump, both the real one and the SFA version.

[Mark Lauzon]

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Screen Shot 2015-11-25 at 3.18.47 PM.png (78.03KiB)Viewed 1579 times

[Dave.Scott]

The 'Donald Trump' of Stone Fabricators Alliance.

Who could I be talking about? Stop with the antagonizing jabs. Just give me the facts about your company and why you are the best solution. Let us, the fabricators, make informed decisions on what solutions work for us. Leave the noise out!

Ray

WTF?

"Stop with your agonizing Jabs", RB do you have nothing to add/say?
Since you have no skin in the game.... Just someone who hides behind a fictitious name and throws mud.

Join in, give us your real name and contact info, only a $250 ante, are you in, or will you fold?

I am betting that you will fold.

Prove me wrong.

[scott m]

Mark....Is that finger bit, plunging a few mm, and reversing back and forth, or plunging the whole 3cm and one cut.....If so, I guess you finger bit first to keep the parts from moving???? Special bit???? Just wondering what the breakthrough was, On MY FC, I had to core first so as the finger bits of the day did not plunge cut well.....

Ger----Isn't the slab outlining and defect marking done when the picture is taken. That is really hard to do once your not standing in front of slab. We used to visually mark it with white out before going to the pedestal and marking it in the software. I cant imagine doing it in the office.

Another couple things to ask.....What happens in the middle of a job when you have to shut down the machine because the water system fouled up or whatever. How is the restart done and from what part of the job????

I like software that does the toolpathing on the part before you put it on the slab, so you can nest what actually can be cut and not keep a certain border or whatever.

Common line cutting, how is that accomplished???

How about programming pauses so you can move a part to avoid an overcut, is this automatic or manual.

Auto nesting on oatmeal slabs, how does that work....

I do dig the finger bit, saw combo.......Do they all have that now????

[Ger Vanderbas]

Ger----Isn't the slab outlining and defect marking done when the picture is taken. That is really hard to do once your not standing in front of slab. We used to visually mark it with white out before going to the pedestal and marking it in the software. I cant imagine doing it in the office.

Scott,

Hope you and your family are well...

You are 100% correct that this kind of work is more easily done at a photo station. Our saws also, though still not necessarily the most efficient way, are equipped at request with a camera ON the machine.

The marking of the perimeter and defects there allows the customer to use the automatic nesting features. This is why in the video you are seeing something that might be flooring or a particular cut to size project for cladding or another application than countertops. The software still (and if anyone remembers since about 2006 we were laying out digitally then) allows you to auto nest using most minimal material and potentially autonesting multiple slabs for similar cuts.

The default here would to be thinking vein and seam match, but what seen there is not that, that is done off line, with a camera station outside the machine, but with software similar to the slabcam you had, we call fabmaster which has inventory, design, and auto toolpathing modules having further developed from what you're used to.

While we are asking questions, I'm curious as for complex kitchen drawings, does anyone who owns a CNC machine actually draw a "complex" multi sided job, or is he using a digital templating system then importing the files?
Sorry for the rhetorical question, but just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Would it be difficult to filet a corner, position a sink, enlarge a drawing, type in a dimension, click on a radius and punch a keypad, even by finger gestures? Do you think so?

Don't you think having these tools at the saw might be helpful for certain situations where you load the slab and it looks a little different than the screen, or there's something you realize you didn't finish drawing etc?

I'm curious because I see people do it every day on their Laser or Proliner screen. I didn't fully appreciate maybe that one 2D cad could be so earth shatteringly different in it's drawing capabilities to another.

Hope you don't mind the question, I remember you as being quite astute in your day on the software end.

Cheers.

G

[DavidL]

Ger - From our standpoint (only speaking for this shop), our guys will template most jobs. We do some Build to size based on architectural plans - mainly in the commercial millwork sector and some tract homes.

From an editing standpoint, all overhangs, radius corners, sink centerlines, bumpouts, are all done on the LT software first. When the CAD dept gets the file, they will insert the correct sink cutout template, break apart the drawings for cutting layout or submit for slabsmith - depending on customer requirements. Most of that editing is done in draftsight/easystone/alphacam depending on comfort of programmer and which machine it is going to. I personally hate alphacam but that is only because I have used Autocad and Draftsight for 15 years so some things seem backwards to me from a commands/process standpoint. My staff use mainly alphacam or easystone.

Would I want to edit via touchscreen - nope. Is it doable - yep. Is it cool - yep. Is it always practical - nope. Again, that is me.

We experience too many problems with touchscreen hardware when hands are wet and dirty - which they typically are after unloading the saw bed. Having the ability to edit at the saw is nice. But in some shops - like ours, I don't want my operator editing. He/She is an operator, we run production, programming is handled in the CAD room so that changes are documented. That is where the communication with sales/project management comes in. Not by the operator on the floor.

Now, if I were in a smaller shop where most owners are wearing multiple hats (owner, bathroom cleaner, templator, babysitter, programmer, operator, HR rep, etc). Then yes, having the most flexibility in places that I can edit would be a luxury. As a buyer my first question would be - How many additional software seats do I have to buy? When presented with similar options in the past, it was cheaper to buy a laptop and load Draftsight on it as an additional CAD station. Then import the file to the saw and cut.

Thanks,

[Ger Vanderbas]

Precisely. Flexibility...

We're old guys though, and mouse oriented. In other places you don't have tenured cad guys who just might be good with a smartphone. Haven't had any issues with the newfen gorilla like screens buy really as you said the lions share of the drawing are done right then and there on the templator, so point having an openness to the variety of processes and HR rather than forcefeeding a process happens to be what I like. It can be in a bunch of different languages supported as well which could be useful to some not all.

Happy thanksgiving Gentlemen, if not for the opportunity to fight for your confidence in us, we'd be lost!

[Alex DiPietro]

Whats a good screen recorder for mac? I could make a 5 minute video on how Easycut works. Its an at the saw software.

[Alex DiPietro]

I left my machine on Teamviewer last night so that I could install a new update remotely, from the comfort of my desk at home. So I can make some videos through teamvier from my house. Keep in mind since I am not actually at the saw, Teamviewer is a little laggy and clicking on certain things is difficult. Also, I am not taking pictures of the slab because the shop is dark right now, and also I am not probing the slab or blade because the machine would need to be on to do so.

Importance of probing: If you want to miter, and have dimensionally accurate pieces, you need a probe (you could alternatively use calipers, but the point i'm making is your thickness needs to be spot on. The slightest error in slab thickness when mitering will result in two issues: Sizes will be wrong. If your slab is thinner than a machine thinks the pieces will be too big. If they're smaller than a machine thinks your pieces will be too small. Second issue: When folding miters, you want as tight a kerf as possible. For a standard blade approximately 0.13" thick, the smallest the kerf can possibly be is just about .25". Easycut calculates kerf based on blade thickness. I'd be interested to know how tight a kerf people are experiencing when mitering.

The second important part of probing is it tells the machine when to stop the blade. On a machine with a vacuum the thickness of the slab and the the diameter of the blade are the two factors that determine how far a piece needs to be moved to avoid an overcut. The thinner the slab is the less distance required between parts. The software automatically calculates these distances.

I am one of those business owners that has many hats to wear. And I run our machine the most. I've been training someone but our work has just been to complicated to throw a newbie at. I'll post a few screen shot videos today showing how an on the saw software can be very powerful and fast. The first one I'll do is cut marks kitchen dxf using the automatic placement of the fingerbit. This essentially, lets you use your machine like a sawjet. It automatically applies the finger bit to radii and inside corners. I'll be the first one to admit we rarely use our machine like this, but we also rarely have any pieces with so many strange notches... I know there's a way to see cycle time, but I didn't do it, but I imagine it would take at least 40mins to run a slab with so many fingerbit cuts.

There were no special tool pathing or anything needed for this job. I just opened Marks Dxf, and eliminated the slab boundaries he drew, as thats something handled once the slab is placed on the table. It literally took me three minutes (thats what my screen recorder is limited to) to open the dxf, select the blade, nest the parts and click go. If I had a photo i could also see the slab superimposed on the dxf for vein matching.

I should also add that if I were using the camera, I would just take a photo and define the limits of the slab by clicking on the picture. Takes only a minute.

https://youtu.be/3ZFuLOBcH3Q

[scott m]

Alex, that software and setup looks bad ass!!!!!!!

[Alex DiPietro]

Here's an example of drawing a simple vanity top with 2" Mitered Edges on Three Sides, all folded for good vein match. There's also a 4" backsplash. We use the vacuum on the machine to move the backsplash and cut to size. We also use the vacuum to move the remants and keep them free of over cuts. If you didn't have a vacuum you would have to either pause the cycle and pull the splash and cut the splash to size by hand, or you would have to stop the miters and finish them by hand as well. The only other way to fully cut this seemingly simple layout without operator intervention would be with a 5 axis waterjet on a sawjet. My free screen recorder is limited to 3 minutes so i made this in two parts. Again, if this were a real job we would have to probe (which is just the click of a button).

Part 1

https://youtu.be/-kjopIsfTss

Part 2

https://youtu.be/lR0i6jSpblo

[scott m]

Ger- I think editing at the machine would be a big plus.......

My fabcenter software was not really that different from what you are showing now.

Situations did arise that require editing, and I used to hate having to run back to the office, get to the proper point, and send a new program.....

I also think most people do most of their cad work at template, but still clean it up and add sinks, etc at the office.....
Most people would not attempt to draw a complex job.

[RB Design]

Ray, lighten up a bit. You have 5 posts in the public area. You do not even fully know the depth of info available here.
The real info is in the member area.

ps: I like Donald Trump, both the real one and the SFA version.

Thanks for the advise Dan. I do like banter to some degree but just joined to get info on a serious purchase and found myself having to sift through a lot of this stuff. Much like FB. I'll have to check the member area.

ps. I like the real Donald Trump too! Probably the fictitious one also.

[RB Design]

The 'Donald Trump' of Stone Fabricators Alliance.

Who could I be talking about? Stop with the antagonizing jabs. Just give me the facts about your company and why you are the best solution. Let us, the fabricators, make informed decisions on what solutions work for us. Leave the noise out!

Ray

WTF?

"Stop with your agonizing Jabs", RB do you have nothing to add/say?
Since you have no skin in the game.... Just someone who hides behind a fictitious name and throws mud.

Join in, give us your real name and contact info, only a $250 ante, are you in, or will you fold?

I am betting that you will fold. Prove me wrong.

Dave,

We've been in business for nearly 25 years and am not hiding from anybody. I'm not sure about the reference to a fictitious name? My name is Ray Bianchi from RB Design. Sorry if it appeared as though I was hiding as that wasn't my intent. I'm new to the site and have asked the questions that are on my mind. We're just trying to get educated on an upcoming purchase. Dan mentioned that the member area is where the real info is. If that takes a $250 buy in then it's worth it.

Ray Bianchi
RB Design

[GuyboR]

We've been in business for nearly 25 years and am not hiding from anybody. I'm not sure about the reference to a fictitious name? My name is Ray Bianchi from RB Design. Sorry if it appeared as though I was hiding as that wasn't my intent. I'm new to the site

Ray,

I fixed your signature line so that your name/company is on all your posts. You can change it yourself by following this link.
http://forum.stonefabricatorsalliance.c ... =signature

[deepwater]

I am going to be honest. I do not care what CAD/CAM software you get unless you know actual AutoCad, Draftsight or equal you are going to very limited IMHO. Yes, I know you can draw it in programs like Logotag,etc but to be able to integrate digitizing software, cad files between architects and designers. Knowing basic CAD in invaluable.

Once the drawing is done, placing parts and doing cuts is cake on any CAD/CAM modern software from Denver, Breton, GMM, etc. with a few days training.

Become a member and you can learn how stuff like this is done. There are members here that have mastered each of the major CAD/CAM software and will share our knowledge with members.

My Example!!
This was designed in Cad and programmed in Logtag and Frestag (shower bench legs cut out the center) Edge profile milled while cutting

Untitled by David Webster, on Flickr

Untitled by David Webster, on Flickr

Untitled by David Webster, on
Flickr



NESTING UM Tub Deck with vanity cut from the center first

Untitled by David Webster, on Flickr