Consumer w/ question about faulty install- input appreciated

[Siran808]

I'm a consumer finishing up a kitchen remodel and have come across a significant issue with my countertop install. I am posting here to get input from professionals in this industry to see what is reasonable to rectify the issue.

In short, I have a rather large island which is over 15 feet long and with a bar level (ie. 2 levels). I decided to splurge and after a long search found 3 beautiful Calacatta Gold slabs with minimum gold tones. Given the length of my island I made sure to find slabs that were also book matched. My fabricator has a new system they implemented within the past year and instead of taping off the slab, we used a really impressive computer software tool to layout the material - which included the critical book matching of the seams and mitered backsplash. Unfortunately, come installation time there were three issues (i) the countertop was not book-matched as agreed upon in the computer layout ( it was "off" by 2 inches"), (ii) to make matters worse, one of the backsplash pieces was 4 cm short - therefore if left unrepaired the vertical seam would not align with the horizontal seams, and (iii) the seams appear large and jagged (granted fabricator mentioned that post install detailing would need to be done).

I understand the material itself cost $12k from the distributor, and I want to be reasonable consumer, but I'm very frustrated with the results thus far. As a fabricator what would you do to rectify the situation? Is this a common occurrence?



Close up showing lower level of counter-top, "short backsplash", and bar top

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Unaligned Book Matched Countertop

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Agreed upon Computer Layout of Lower Top and Backsplash (note Backsplash is on bottom, front of countertop is at the top of pic)

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Seam

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Island Front View (not showing area at issue)

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[Matt Lansing]

Oh boy! That's a tough one.

While the seam doesn't line up like it should, it is "close". Not a great answer I know.

We also have the same software, I am assuming you are referring to Slabsmith software, and while it is an amazing tool it is not absolutely fool proof in its execution. You do still have to verify you set up the saw and slab correctly so everything is orientated correctly. We have been off before as well and had to remake pieces that weren't acceptable.

The fun part is finding out what you feel is acceptable. You have beautiful material. Your installation with the waterfalls going to the floor is not easy to pull off and are quite challenging to get correct. If that main seam is the only thing that is the worst part then I would consider looking at the entire project as a whole. I can't say about the backsplash seam not lining up with the counter seams until we see how the piece next to it lines up. If they are able to get a great vein match at the seam it will hopefully make the presence of the seam not as obvious.

Cameras have a wonderful way of exaggerating the seams in stone.

So in short I didn't really give you a firm answer. For some customers what you have is fine and for others they couldn't live with it.

We do have fine print on our digital layouts that say that the picture is just a representation of what you will receive and that variations can happen.

You will have to work out a solution with your fabricator.

[Dan R.]

The overall job looks great. The seam could be done a little better. As far as the book match, that is a personal decision.

Beautiful kitchen overall, IMO.

[ash20ash]

WOW
Thats a tough decision right there.

I would give him a chance to maybe color the glue in the seam some, and make it less noticeable. And then look at the kitchen as a whole and see if it is acceptable or not. Only you can make that decision.

Even having him remake it could yield worse results.

[Kowboy]

Siran808:

I suggest you place a metal level over the seam. It should not rock, nor should there be a dip. Even if each edge is cut perfectly, it the pieces are out of plane, the bottom of the edge will meet before the top, creating the conspicuous seam you have.

Fabricators love this software because it creates a contractual picture of what the proposed top will look like and providing indisputable evidence that the contract was met. Fortunately for you, this picture evidence goes both ways. Your job looks nothing like the agreed-upon picture.

It stinks when a fabricator has a do-over, but if he's any good, he will survive and be stronger for it. I promise you, if he replaces this top, this mistake will not happen again. Don't cheat him out of his lesson.

[Ken Lago]

Siran808:

I suggest you place a metal level over the seam. It should not rock, nor should there be a dip. Even if each edge is cut perfectly, it the pieces are out of plane, the bottom of the edge will meet before the top, creating the conspicuous seam you have.

Fabricators love this software because it creates a contractual picture of what the proposed top will look like and providing indisputable evidence that the contract was met. Fortunately for you, this picture evidence goes both ways. Your job looks nothing like the agreed-upon picture.

It stinks when a fabricator has a do-over, but if he's any good, he will survive and be stronger for it. I promise you, if he replaces this top, this mistake will not happen again. Don't cheat him out of his lesson.

Siran, Kowboy is a troll that likes to stir up crap and then sits back and enjoy the confusion. Please don't take his posts seriously.

[ash20ash]

Siran808:

I suggest you place a metal level over the seam. It should not rock, nor should there be a dip. Even if each edge is cut perfectly, it the pieces are out of plane, the bottom of the edge will meet before the top, creating the conspicuous seam you have.

Fabricators love this software because it creates a contractual picture of what the proposed top will look like and providing indisputable evidence that the contract was met. Fortunately for you, this picture evidence goes both ways. Your job looks nothing like the agreed-upon picture.

It stinks when a fabricator has a do-over, but if he's any good, he will survive and be stronger for it. I promise you, if he replaces this top, this mistake will not happen again. Don't cheat him out of his lesson.

Siran, Kowboy is a troll that likes to stir up crap and then sits back and enjoy the confusion. Please don't take his posts seriously.

x2

No job is ever perfect. It really comes down to what is acceptable to you.
Grade the overall job and make your decision from that.

Have you contacted him for a resolution/ solution on this?

[Jonathan]

Siran808:

I suggest you place a metal level over the seam. It should not rock, nor should there be a dip. Even if each edge is cut perfectly, it the pieces are out of plane, the bottom of the edge will meet before the top, creating the conspicuous seam you have.

Fabricators love this software because it creates a contractual picture of what the proposed top will look like and providing indisputable evidence that the contract was met. Fortunately for you, this picture evidence goes both ways. Your job looks nothing like the agreed-upon picture.

It stinks when a fabricator has a do-over, but if he's any good, he will survive and be stronger for it. I promise you, if he replaces this top, this mistake will not happen again. Don't cheat him out of his lesson.

Siran, Kowboy is a troll that likes to stir up crap and then sits back and enjoy the confusion. Please don't take his posts seriously.

Yeah, he is the 1 out of 10 doctors that actually recommend smoking.

[Andy Ross]

Is there some halfway compromise? Perhaps splitting the cost of another slab to correct the bad area. The vein match isnt horrible, but its definitely not like the picture. The seam is probably within standards, though not fantastic.

[ageless]

Was the backsplash cut short or did they slide it over to vein match for picture purpose? Backsplash can be tricky because they end up sitting 3/4" in front of the cut.

[GuyboR]

Was the backsplash cut short or did they slide it over to vein match for picture purpose? Backsplash can be tricky because they end up sitting 3/4" in front of the cut.

Rey...It looks like 3cm material, so the splash may actually be sitting about 1 1/4" on top of the lower countertop.


Siren....The vein matching will NEVER match up perfectly unless you fold the splash up and fill in the "hole".

Have you discussed this with your fabricator? What is their response?

Overall, the kitchen looks great. You just need to work with the fabricator to finish the details that are "bothering" you right now.

Did you discuss sealing and etching with your fabricator? If this is a working kitchen, you WILL have etching on this material (marble) in the future. That doesn't make it good or bad, it is just the way the material will react to acidic products. (much like a leather coat reacts to rain )

[Siran808]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

I understand that its impossible to completely match up the veining, and I don't expect "perfect" results but in my opinion the fabricator wasn't even close to getting it done correctly per the drawing in an area they knew was important to me. I've been waiting 5 days to hear back from them on a resolution. From what I understand the zero point they used when we originally laid out the slabs moved during fabrication - if that is the case then shouldn't they have contacted me so we could lay out the slabs again with the new reference point?

What irks me even more is I don't understand how one of the backsplash piece could be 3-4cm too short (and as a result my backsplash also no longer matches). They have proposed a "fix" to the mistake by adding more material to the end with a very very small seam, but its yet another seam. This mistake just makes me think that it was poor attention to detail for the entire project on my fabricator's part.

Ultimately, I'm hoping they agree to redo the lower countertop and backsplash - but that would mean having to find two slabs that are matching and are similar enough in color to what I have (lot is already sold out). Not sure if that is a reasonable ask or possible......if its's not feasible I'd want a significant discount.

I like to think of myself as reasonable, I'm not on the warpath, but certainly very disappointed after spending +20K.....
Thoughts?

Guybor - This is my second remodel, and second time using Marble. I'm having the material sealed, and am quite aware of the etching risks. Its beautiful material, and if treated right I know I'll be happy with it for years to come even with some etches

[GuyboR]

I like to think of myself as reasonable, I'm not on the warpath, but certainly very disappointed after spending +20K.....
Thoughts?

Reasonable will get you farther than screaming. But I agree that you are not buying uba tuba, so your expectations are not out of line. Hopefully the fabricator will take care of you.

Guybor - This is my second remodel, and second time using Marble. I'm having the material sealed, and am quite aware of the etching risks. Its beautiful material, and if treated right I know I'll be happy with it for years to come even with some etches

I had to ask. Those types of "details" are sometimes forgotten / not known by designers. We had an architect spec this material for a COMMERCIAL BATHROOM. I'm waiting for the "it's broke" call.

[JMarcella]

Do you have any written contractual agreements with the fabricator governing the expectations/limitations of the digital layout and/or a general performance contract? If so, the conclusion for either party, for better or worse, should be clear from a legal perspective. And if so, this should at least help to steer the situation towards a conclusion. Hopefully without legal recourse from either party.

For what it's worth, the kitchen looks beautiful. The fabrication is reasonable. Not great, but reasonable.

[Siran808]

JMarcella-

Fortunately or unfortunately I am an attorney (a nice one though ). The contract states that exact matching is not guaranteed and is not a reason for rejection. I'm not expecting an exact match, but this in my opinion isn't even close to exact.

Shop owner is coming over to see the work tomorrow and to discuss. As of now they have only offered explanations/excuses but no real resolution or even a simple apology.

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[JMarcella]

Oh, it's certainly off. The question is now how attached are you to the stone? The general match is still there, meaning it still follows somewhat the bookmatch flow pattern, and overall still looks pretty nice IMO. But yes, it is not what you agreed to. If in an alternate scenario, if the slabs were not bookmatched, that flow pattern would have been a pretty nice match. So, in the grand picture, you need to ask yourself whether you can live with it or not.

If you love the stone and can live with it being off, negotiate a reasonable discount. If not, replacement is probably your only solution, but you may find matching issues with the new stone as well which may bother you even more, unless there are still slabs available from that same bundle.

Best of luck.

[Kowboy]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

You're welcome.

Ultimately, I'm hoping they agree to redo the lower countertop and backsplash - but that would mean having to find two slabs that are matching and are similar enough in color to what I have (lot is already sold out). Not sure if that is a reasonable ask or possible......if its's not feasible I'd want a significant discount.

The problem with this is that your checkbook balance will come and go, but if you take a discount, this mismatched top will greet you every morning with your coffee for the next 50 years. The expense of the replacement is not your concern; a deal is a deal.

I like to think of myself as reasonable, I'm not on the warpath, but certainly very disappointed after spending +20K.....
Thoughts?

This is bigger than your kitchen. Like it or not, residential stone is the fashion business and every time there is an unhappy customer, especially a justifiably unhappy customer, it makes the whole industry look bad. We want consumers to be excited and willing to spend their money on countertops and compete more against cars and vacations for that disposable income than against each other. Anyone who isn't delivering is taking food off the table of those who are.

The objective of the Stone Fabricator's Alliance is "to provide the resources necessary to enable our members to prosper by improving their quality of fabrication and restoration methods and practices." Your post strikes at the very heart of this objective by educating fabricators that a book match missed by 2 inches does not improve their quality of fabrication. It's what not to do.

[BC Granite and Marble]

As humans none of us are perfect, it looks as though some issues came up. Not every aspect of the job is 100%. However the job as a whole looks impressive and mostly well executed. It looks as though the fabricator has some knowledge and skill, and most likely takes pride in his work and reputation. At this point I would see if they can possibly find an acceptable match for the backsplash and maybe a little seam work.

[Alex DiPietro]

Hmmmm....... No brownie points in my book for stark white glue and the mismatch at the seam.... There's a risk involved when working with expensive material... This would be my nightmare.... Except around here we pay way more than $4k per slab....

[JeffC]

I dont think someone that does this cares very much at all, except for profit. They saw the issue before it left the shop. Everyone makes mistakes, its how you handle them that counts. Being honest and upfront is always best. Now that its past that point and you have the pictures to prove they did not do the job right you need to decide what you will accept.

While tracking down material may not pan out, the distributor of the stone should atleast be able to track down the next closest bundle still available and send the fabricator some pics for you to decide if its good enough or not. If material is still around at the shop from your slabs, maybe a slight change in layout with a different seam location could work? Are you willing to switch materials if neither of those options pan out? If not then I guess settling for an inferior finish for less money is your last option.

Best of luck with your meeting tomorrow. Let us know how it goes.

Jeff

[Dan R.]

From the contract, the book match is allowed to be off somewhat. Define the nebulous in court..Any lawyer knows that leaves the door open for either party. My brother is a not so nice lawyer (trial attorney), I bet he wouldn't waste his time on either side of this one. A win in court means what? That he has another go at it? Same plan with a different expectation is the definition of insanity, isn't it?

You having experience with remodeling and being a fairly educated individual, I feel compelled to ask if you did any due diligence on this fabricator. Did you ask for references? Did you contact the references? There is certainly some legitimate issues with the job as is. Most of it could be remedied at a fairly low cost to all involved. I feel some of the issues may have been avoidable with some better due diligence before the sale, not after the install.

I am confident that this fabricator did the best he could do. How much more is reasonable to expect? By the color of his seam, he seems lacking in this strata of working marble, imo.

As stated earlier, the marble does have a nice flow. Get the seam re done and remedy the backsplash would be a reasonable settlement. Then every day when you look at it and have your coffee, you can remember the that all the fault was not the fabricator, as their were 2 parties to this contract.

[JeffC]

"From the contract, the book match is allowed to be off somewhat"


So a company can market this software and technology, show a customer what the job will look like before its cut. Then cut it different then what they showed them up front to get the job and as long as the contract was worded correctly all is ok from the business end of it? I am sorry but the industry was creating perfect book matches long before the technology came along to automatically do it. And if that's the best a digital shop can do then they don't deserve to take peoples money or money out of the market and pockets of honest/capable fabricators.

An employee dropped the ball somewhere, period. Perfect matches are achievable by laying it out with a tape measure. Heck, you can program the saw to make a few cut ins from the outside of the slab or plunge in cuts and then check them to the photo to make sure the slab is aligned perfectly.

This fabricator dropped the ball. Maybe it will stand up in court but that's not the point. If you cant stand behind what you promise then you wont be in business very long.

[JeffC]

Here is one accomplished by hand with a tape measure. The seam on the bottom goes from point to point.

[Siran808]

So I spoke with the fabricator who came to my home this morning. They admit that (i) the short backsplash was their fault due to a human error, (ii) claims that when put on the cutting board one of the slabs was soft and thus the zero point had to be moved (And thus the issue with the book match), and (iii) agreed to repair the seams but that the width of the seams would not change . They admit that they should have contacted us when the zero point was moved, but claim that nothing could have been done to get a book match given the fragility of the slab.

To rectify the backsplash they extended the short backsplash as seen below. My issue is that the seam for the extension is not inconspicuous, and they are still going to need to add another vertical seam that lines up with the horizontal seam. IMO it would look horrible to have two seams so close to each other, so if I proceed I'd have to suck it up and go with one vertical seam which doesn't line up with the horizontal seams.

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(My other question to them was if they could get the seam so small on the extension above, why couldn't they do the same for the countertop. They said that the tops were cut by machines and the extension by hand, so the countertop seams couldn't be as small as the extension. BS? )

As for the Countertop book match, since the marble was soft and could have broken they didn't feel as if it was their fault. Again, they admit should have contacted us before the cuts, but ultimately nothing could have been done to change the layout (or so they claim). Apologies for being a skeptical consumer - but I feel like the "its natural stone which can break" is just too easy a get out of jail card.

Not surprisingly my fabricator refuse to replace the countertop and backsplash, but I'm also realistic that its probably not in the best interest of either party. So now my decision is to live with countertops that are not book matched, and with a vertical seam which isn't aligned with the horizontal seams - and negotiate a discount.

@ Dan - I'm surprised your are blaming the customer here. I live in the suburbs of Chicago not far from you, and I did do my due diligence and didn't just go with the lowest cost vendor. The fabricator has excellent online reviews, and two separate stone distributors I talked with confirmed that they were top notch. Last year they moved to a larger building and installed new state of the art equipment - so I was fairly confident that they knew what they were doing.

[Dan R.]

Jeff,
I agree 100%. If this fabricator keeps promising book matched........
Sadly, it could end up in court with no one winning anything.
We are talking about remedies and competency. If the fabricator could do it, I would assume that he would have on the first go around. The time for due diligence and education is before the purchase, not after the install.

Sounds like the beginning of a joke... A lawyer signs a contract.


Answer to original poster:
The solution of a discount will be your best resolution. I think you should consider having the fabricator bring the splice piece & splash, and not attempt themselves. Hire someone competent to change/repair the seam and do the backsplash (as conditions allow) as good as possible.
My feeling is that the existing fabricator is over his head a little bit, based on the photos and stories. The reason for the mismatch is irrelevant at this point. Negotiate a discount, get the job repaired elsewhere, and move on. Count it as a cheap lesson, far cheaper than law school.

I am not blaming the consumer.
Fact #1. Fabricator spends a lot of money with distributors. They may not be the most unbiased for a recommendation.

Fact #2. Online reviews can be manipulated by buying bigger packages from providers, including BBB, Yelp and others. Hell, Dun & Bradstreet calls regularly asking for financial information to rate our company. Then, they sell the self reported information to foreign companies wanting to do business with us. How can that be considered accurate? Scam and inaccurate are the nicest way to describe my feelings about Internet reviews, for the most part.

Fact #3. If you did not see (in person) a similar job done by this fabricator, you did not properly vet them. Imo.


Good luck.