CNC Saw Software Wars

[BellaTerra]

We have a pretty good idea of what differentiates the saws we are looking at from a physical stand point and now want to delve into the software side of things.

The major players are Alphacam(Sasso), Taglio(Denver), Parametrix(Donatoni), Bretons (Smartcam I think) and of course there are others.

Could those who have used both please share their experience and knowledge of what they liked and disliked about each.
Those who represent the respective brands can to please share why they believe their software is the best solution.

Please keep this as positive as possible though I would like to know the short comings of each as there is obviously no one perfect solution.

[Andrew H]

Our sasso experience started with the Italian FST software because the alphacam wasn't as complete as I wanted to be at the time of the install of our saw. I dealt with that for about 9-10 months before running to switch out to the alphacam. As far as I'm concerned it's great. We've been using Acam for years now with our N'woods and it WAY better than the FST was. It's not what N'woods stonevision is but it's pretty damn close, some things arguably better. You can batch highlight all the parts, right click and path all parts really easily. It will stop short, plunge and what not by itself for the most part. I still go in a tweak things here and there because I don't feel the need to plunge cut as much as it wants to. It's not a problem because it's easy to do with the single attribute edit function, you just click on the line that needs adjusting and edit on the spot.

The software will not include finger biting corners with the batch pathing feature. You will have to explode those geometries and path them separately after the saw's paths are generated. It's cake to do it especially once you get a "machine style" saved. It's as simple as a couple clicks.

Another part I love about the software has been the support. I was having an issue where I couldn't generate an ISO file because some saw cuts on a scribe were saying they were interfering when they definitely were not. I called up the tech who installed our machine, who is an awesome guy (ALWAYS ANSWERS HIS PHONE OR CALLS BACK QUICKLY) who got Stepping-up Technologies (creators of the sasso acam software) team on it. With in an hour I had a new VB macros file emailed me that I replaced and the issue disappeared. I'm happy to see all this because team of people working on it are actively trying to make it better with user input. I know that it's only going to get better because I've seen where it was and where it is now.

[BellaTerra]

We were told Taglio was designed specific to cutting while Alphacam was designed more for routing than cutting and since we were buying a saw Taglio was what I should go with.

Anyone familiar here with Parametrix? Is it closer to Alphacam or Taglio or is it completely different? What about Breton's software? Everyone seems to agree Breton has the build quality but do they have the software advantage as well?

[Ger Vanderbas]

Breton has numerous softwares developed for specific applications.

The worthy is Breton Smartcam Saw (formerly called FKcam), which is quite equivalent to the onboard software for anyone who currently owns a pre 2013 Smartcut,Combicut, or FKNC800 series machine, but with a more modern look.

The worthy is typically sold with this as standard and it is a software that's best demonstrated so that one might understand the various newer features.

ON a portioned screen of the machine or a PC you can see the image of a slab, or just a rectangle representing the slab if opted for non photo integration. (which I think in most cases is a mistake)

You simply import an entire dxf file layout, or pieces, and drag and drop them onto the photo or rectangle. The cutting lines are immediately included based upon the blade size parameters set. A library is preset with feeds/speeds for various materials and there are crazy simple tools for auto nesting snapping pieces for common line cuts, defect avoidance, overcut avoidance and pause, rotation and movement of pieces, and sequences/strategies of cutting.

It's very straightforward, and pretty hard to mess up.

After that we have fabmaster which is a full inventory mgmt, digital 3D layout, and auto tool patch creation tool which gives you the virtual seam and vein matching features showing renderings of projects with recesses, eventual edge detail, 2+2 buildups, laid up splash, and etc. etc. Uses a similar library for execution information (feeds, rpm) and has an optimization feature to most efficiently approach the cutting in most minimal operations. It can be expanded from 2000 images to unlimited, and multiple pieces can be matched from different or the same slab.

We think software in terms of what is done on the PC, but also the onboard HMI is quite simple and "app" based.

Then you have the software that executes the program on the machine which of course is the ISO language or "G code" which eventually gives the machine it's set of instructions for location, feed, position, and various checks. We use the highest level SIEMENS SINUMERIK 840di Solution Line control, which is the industry standard worldwide for those involved in high speed machining, and the same we have for those machines we manufacture for the aerospace industry with customers who are making defense aircraft components. A critical factor of any CNC machine is that it's control be able to read, respond, and execute blocks of instructions at extremely high speeds in order to seamlessly perform complex multiaxis motions in high speed without hesitance and as continuous motions. Siemens has been a consistent forerunner in this area of high speed execution as it designs control/motor/amplifier/interface packages that are precisely tuned to each other to work in concert. This results in precise positioning while not sacrificing speed of motion. All this happens outside the necessary scope of awareness of the operator, but further it includes machine health, alarm, and logic according to the specific configuration and mechanical capabilities of the machine as well as a particular remote support platform that has recently been featured in Microsoft advertisements with our clients.

More than that, one should see it. The above doesn't do it justice, but I think the supplied control platform is something not to discount because it has everything to do with localization continuity and longevity of support.

That's my .02

Every builder will have it's strengths software wise and most will be accurate, so as far as a war, we're well armed but as for me personally I'm not a big fan of mutually assured destruction. It's about finding ways to be as good as we can with whom it makes mutual sense to do business. After that everyone's gotta eat. I just want our clients eating more steak and less ramen noodle soup before I retire to my eventual hot dog stand and ponder only the question of mustard or ketchup.

Good Night.

[Mark Lauzon]

Funny....I slapped this video together awhile back (6 years ago) when somebody said how hard it was to program a sawjet in Alphacam. I used a Slabsmith layout. Pretty straight forward. It was bad ass back then...nothing has changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxFHOn61_wk
(I know about my alphacam typo , spare me the meme, late nite at shop after a couple barley pops...thanks in advance) Enjoy: Rage Against The Machine

If you want european software, Sasso's also use FST (similar to taglio and other european builds), if you wanted to pay somebody to write the post you could probably run a Sasso with Taglio. (unless it's proprietary) One of our customers in Canada uses MasterCam.

If we are going to have a software "war"....how about I make a crazy ass cut batch. One with curves, sinks, recessed cooktop cutouts, faucet holes, tight nests. I will make it so the DXF file can be downloaded and anybody that wants can make video of the cuts being programed and we can post the videos here for the whole world to see. I'd like to see that vacuum gizmo in action. And you can then see the advantages of the super plunge vs. the vacuum systems.

Wouldn't that be "Super"? How much you want to bet it won't happen.

Andrew...I am testing a new build. You will dig it the most. Be another month to make sure it's ready for release, call me and I can demo the update for you. (or anyone else running Acam on their Sasso or if you are just curious) I won't need to make an appointment so somebody can show it to you.

[Dan R.]

My 2006 PLC GMM saw has drag & drop on a slab pic. This makes layout & cutting pretty damn simple.

Get,
FYI, save the ketchup for the fries.

[Mark Lauzon]

We were told Taglio was designed specific to cutting while Alphacam was designed more for routing than cutting and since we were buying a saw Taglio was what I should go with.

Sounds like you been listening to someone selling Taglio. I'd bet more slabs have been cut by American fabricators using Alphacam than Taglio. I know many of the big shops are in this country and most of them are running gear programed in Alphacam.

Todd, Ron, Guy, James D, Angel, Andrew, Miles, Randy, Dave, Steven, Matt, Chris, Jim, George, all my sasso customers...all these guys here on this site and sooooo many more (sorry...it's friday, writing 50 or 60 names would get tiresome)

Dare I say it might be an American stone industry standard. (Ger...keep it together)

Denver -- Taglio (and I am sure a few others)

Park, Northwood, Sasso -- AlphaCam

Wrapping up an install and training another new user to Alphacam. It was a good day.

On another note:

I just want our clients eating more steak and less ramen noodle soup before I retire to my eventual hot dog stand and ponder only the question of mustard or ketchup....

Screen Shot 2015-11-20 at 8.51.05 PM.png (360.63KiB)Viewed 2940 times

[Ger Vanderbas]

There are numerous very good cam softwares including alphacam available which come from numerous sources. Our former software was also alphacam based but for numerous reasons we wanted to do more and share our development with less contemporaris and give clients certain advantages.

We just don't follow the standards unless we feel the standards are the best. Just not how breton rolls I'm together very well Mark. Might look otherwise at times but can't control that. We were using alpha cam before your products were conceived. So if it's now standard who set it? And who followed?
There are specific advantages to developing software that is fully functional with the various features and attachments you offer that others dont.
Example 5 axis interpolated waterjet on our combi, a multitude of attachments for the cnc router, double bridge double head machines with five axis capable of stomping on 27 slabs in a shift. Who designed the original software and hmi around incorporating saw and jet. Please?

From my personal point of view, Our strategy is simple to give our clients competitive advantages while not giving contemporaries the keys to allow their competitors to catch up.
It's a solid strategy. We are now working within open source platforms that allow us full ownership of technologies we develop and we are dealing with well world acclaimed companies as engines as partners.

It would be considerably easier work to outsource development but then you have to outsource also your ideas. Why should we?

Just sayin. I've got family stuff to do that's really more important today.

Guys Lauzon is a great guy who like me cares. In the end you have to decide if you want standards or push them. There's logic in both.

[BellaTerra]

Just the kinda info I was looking for, thank you for sharing.

How difficult would it be to get some short videos of the different softwares cutting out a typical kitchen? It would be nice for anyone to see the user interface.

Still want to hear about Taglio and Parametrix as well.

[deepwater]

I will say between Taglio Logotag and Frestag there is not much you can't do with a CNC saw.. Denver has done a great job at working alongside Taglio to get the best introgration


Here area few of my educational videos

http://youtu.be/VzfF603bSYA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7cMfpO2MqeM

[Alex DiPietro]

The simpler the software the less flexibility you have. What's your current setup like? How to you see yourself using the machine? are you trying to hit X sq ft a day? Do you want the best mitering with the tightest kerf? do you have a router? do you plan on finger biting a lot?

Each software handles these things differently...

[Ger Vanderbas]

For sure we are not talking brain science to program 2d and mostly 3-4 axis moves.

Lot's of companies do it well enough to make countertop blanks.

Is there someone to answer the phone when there is an alarm, or when something unexpected happens, or when something's a little trickier than what you normally do? To me that's important too, because I think once you have someone who understands basic cad, he can learn eventually the nuances of many different softwares and commit eventually to memory the steps involved. It's the uh oh moments that matter.

I'd advise anyone searching to request a demo with the supplier and a tech. It's really much better than one example on a max 10 minute video.

How do you draw, how you import drawings, how the slab is located, how you set leadins leadouts, direction of cuts, order of operations, how you eventually transmit the program to the machine, and how you eventually initialize the program. You can make a 5 minute video look awfully simple and fast but for sure a half hour with a pro can make a big difference to understand the logic of things and if it works to your liking.

Most companies should have someone around for that, and if they can find the time to schedule it, you can at the same time get a preview of how working with that company might be.

Just a friendly suggestion.

G

[Mark Lauzon]

How difficult would it be to get some short videos of the different softwares cutting out a typical kitchen? It would be nice for anyone to see the user interface.

Ger, Talk to your technical peeps. Have them make a video. I am sure if you want to have a software war...that's not asking too much is it?

How do you draw, how you import drawings, how the slab is located, how you set leadins leadouts, direction of cuts, order of operations, how you eventually transmit the program to the machine, and how you eventually initialize the program. You can make a 5 minute video look awfully simple and fast but for sure a half hour with a pro can make a big difference to understand the logic of things and if it works to your liking.

Ger...I can show you that stuff in a five minute video....that's the point isn't it? I'll try to get it done tonight. (getting ready to enjoy a lazy sunday) And...it is pretty simple when you know how to do it....and I will do all those things mentioned above. Just for you.

[BC Granite and Marble]

We have two different brand of machines both with easy stone software. Very quick and simple to learn and also very powerful as far as what can be done. Never ran the others, I'm sure they are all sufficient once you learn them. Programming either the saw or the router is quick enough that our operators are able to program next cycle while the machines process the pieces on the table.

[deepwater]

Here is what I as a fabricator - not a sales rep can say.. I can template a 3 bath, powder and kitchen house at 8am, (using my Lieca in the kitchen and Just meauring the baths with a tape measure.. Have Cad work and programming done by 10, and have the sinks dropped and all of the tops cut by 12:00-1:00. By 2:00 all parts are pass through the line polisher, and by 5:00p sinks are polished and tops are ready for install the next am!

That's using Taglio, Denver Skema CNC Saw, Marmo lime polisher and hand polishing sinks

[Mark Lauzon]

David thanks for posting those videos. You sound like most of my saw customers. Digital is the way to go....no matter which system you ultimately choose. I learned something watching your video, I hope that the one I post might have a trick or two you can apply.

I decided to make the Video in such a way that I could use at a training aid. I'll make another at some point with more advanced techniques like setting up machine styles, setting up tools, sorting tool orders, engraving, mitering and things to think about when processing engineered stone or hard ass quartzite.

The actual toolpathing happens about 6 minutes in. (5-6 mins to toolpath three cut batches) I hope I am not talking too fast. Well...enjoy.

I've attached a DXF of the cut batch and nest if you want to play around with and make your own video.

Sample Kitchen and Nest DXF File.dxf

(58.18KiB)Downloaded 84 times

(Feel free to use my drawing Ger...I won't mind)

https://vimeo.com/146599571

[Todd Luster]

Nice! The software has came a ways since I saw it in Orlando.

I even picked up a little nugget watching.
File
Save selected.

Thanks for posting Mark!

[Ken Lago]

Alpha cam is cool simple and fast, I always liked it.

[Dan R.]

Said the most Interesting man in fabrication!!

[Ger Vanderbas]

Guys, I believe Mark is making the point that he does the install and training and videos and indeed I do not.

I can assure you though that in my total career, I've run equipment, programmed saws, and installed a saw or two.

He wins the war if that is the most important to you, that your salesperson is also the trainer, installer, and support guy.
I'm not (and cannot be) those things and also manage the size of organization we have.

If this is taken that we have an inferior product, I would challenge that.

That said, our approach is to have demos done with people who are using the software daily. I can "plink around" on many of our softwares and have at least a basic understanding of them all but not well enough to make a competitive video, if indeed I felt the challenging company had a competitive product to what we offer.

We have tenured and experienced technical trainers who are most qualified to demo the software and who are there during a demo to be certain each point is understood and clear and it rarely takes 5 or even 12 minutes.

In any case, those resources are precious as of late as we are training right now about 8 different clients on new installs and supporting others, so yes it would need to be scheduled. Someone called me 2 hours ago and we're having it tomorrow evening.

In any case, here's a little taste of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzegn8ar54k

It could be interesting for you to know that this is installed both ON and off our machines so that a client can easily and seamlessly change a program that he's done in the office without necessarily going back to his software at the desk.

On the machine is like a smartphone so similar gestures as your phone. It is being continually developed and is moving along with the "APP" and touch technology that is foremost with the development of other contemporary software and hardware.

Thanks for looking.

G

[Dan R.]

Ger, that software looks awesome.
Being a CAD novice, it small far more intuitive than clicking through a zillion auto cad commands.

I thought the feature of changing the piece size at the saw was easy and sensible.

Nice video, would expect nothing else from Breton.

[Todd Luster]

That makes it look more like a game Ger.
I love the design and face of that. Less intimidating and obvious descriptions.
Thanks!

[Mark Lauzon]

He wins the war if that is the most important to you, that your salesperson is also the trainer, installer, and support guy. I'm not (and cannot be) those things and also manage the size of organization we have.

I sell gear, I consult, I do marketing work. I know how to install, program, train, and answer my customers questions because I know the equipment, software and processes required to build kitchens with the gear I sell. I've never gone to one of my customers installations without a factory tech. I go because I enjoy it. Nice try though.

Below is a pic our Sasso tech checking the finger bit to blade alignment on a k600 we installed last week in Idaho. Next week we will be at my old shop in Oregon installing a new k600.

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I do like where you guys are going with the slabsmithing stuff...compelling....that type of software is difficult to execute and honestly impressive. Looks exactly like something Bill Elliot wrote several years ago (minus the touch part)

If you actually figure out how to draw serious cad (not just dragging parts around) with a touch pad you guys will win a global software war. I have played with cad on touchpads and it is not as easy to draw with a touch pad as your video would make you believe.

Make a video of somebody drawing a kitchen with all the annoying details (notches, bump outs, scribes, electrical outlet cutouts, etc..) that come with a kitchen on a touch pad faster than doing it in cad with a keyboard and mouse and I will make you a golden trophy and present it to you at stone expo. You can take a picture and I will hang it on my wall in my office and post it here to remind me of your awesomeness. (I will surrender to you ) Declare the war won.

On a final note. I would suggest anyone looking at buying digital gear for their shop visit some shops running the gear in the real world. If you want references, this forum has many of our customers here or I can send you a list. There is a limit to what you can accomplish jibber jabbering in a forum. We have dozens of 5 axis K600s installed and several twin bed k600s crushing it everyday....running software that many fabricators use and are familiar with. Sasso provides solid tech support and assistance. Combine all those with great pricing and you have a winning combination that makes sense to many fabricators. Our large and growing customer base speaks to this fact.

Happy thanksgiving everyone.

[Ken Lago]

I believe on Dan's Eagle the saw rinses the slab automatically before the vac does its thing.

[Mark Lauzon]

Sorry ken...edited that out of the post. I asked if the vac lifter removed slurry. Ken answered it....I kind of thought that was obvious in retrospect and pulled the question as he answered it.