Which Saw Jet for mitering?

[fischertile]

So, after a long siesta from the equipment hunt mainly and due to an influx in workload we’re back at it. We’ve narrowed our search down to the purchase of a dual table Saw Jet.

One of our main focus’s will be on the mitering capabilities of the machine. We had our sights on the BACA and also the Northwood Robo system but can’t seem to get past the small working envelope that the robots seem have with mitering or if they can actually do it at all. Also from what we were being told, the accuracy of the robot arm at mitering.

Unless anyone knows otherwise we're thinking this fact may narrow our search down a bit to the gantry style Saw Jets.

Can anyone shed some light on mitering capabilities and accuracy of any of the Saw Jets at mitering. Specifically ease of software etc. Also if anyone has opinions on the dual table system please throw it out there. We have a good idea but we're not sure of the right questions to be asking as this is new territory for us.

Any opinions or information is greatly appreciated

John Salmon

[Alex DiPietro]

If I were in the market for a saw jet that miters I would look at the Breton Combicut, CMS Sprint Jet, or the Prussiani I saw in Verona. All three have a 5 axis waterjets. To me thats incredible. If you want it for mitering the jet portion doesn't help very much if it doesn't incline. I don't believe the american machines have a 5ax waterjet.

[SbergeronMG]

He's pretty dead on if it is solely for mitering Breton combicut or cms sprint et.

Cms easier software and some option advantage (vacuum lifter,dredge , etc)

Breton combicut I believe their saw is a bit more polished with the time it did exist and
The tuning they did. It's still not really hard to program we are talking about a cnc saw after all.
Kmt waterjet I believe got the upper hand here.

Brembana usually comes in a little cheaper it's a hard choice I will say.

[RBatstone]

Check out cei from Portugal I look at their machines and spoke to a few companies running them and they loved them.

[Dan R.]

Burkhardt from Germany has a model working all over the world, including the USA.

[Joe Durfee]

Burkhardt from Germany has a model working all over the world, including the USA.

x2

I have the machine Dan is speaking of. I've used 2 of the 3 that Alex listed and I can say that the Burkhardt is heads and shoulders above when it comes to mitering.

[GlobalEquipment]

Alex,

Omag has a new 5-Axis Waterjet they just came out with as well. Regardless they can build a sawjet if you really wanted that as well.

Jeff

[Dan R.]

A one off machine in this business?
That sounds like shear madness, imo.

[GlobalEquipment]

Dan,

All of the Omag machines can be built to the customers exact specifications if desired. They have veered away from building a "cookie cutter" sawjet type machine because they offer a very robust built CNC saw and now even have the ability to have an automatic tool change on it if you dont want to swap tools for sink cut outs, inside corners etc manually on the ISO-50 spindle (actually its pneumatic release). It is their belief and I tend to agree the maintenance costs on the sawjet machine become quite substantial over time, especially if you consider the life span of an intensifier pump in itself. Because of this, they dont truly believe it is the best solution for countertop manufacturers. If someone were dead set on getting a sawjet, they can and have built these type machines before with great success and a great build.

[fischertile]

Burkhardt from Germany has a model working all over the world, including the USA.

x2

I have the machine Dan is speaking of. I've used 2 of the 3 that Alex listed and I can say that the Burkhardt is heads and shoulders above when it comes to mitering.

Thanks for all the impute here so please keep it coming,

Joe that's great you've been able to work on a few of the other machines we'd be looking at. First off which machines would you be comparing them to, my mind has been gravitating towards the Combicut for some reason, what are some of the things that would stand out as far as what makes the Burkhart better for the mitering?

[Joe Durfee]

Breton Combicut and a Northwood Sawjet were the other two.

The biggest difference is that my machine saw cuts on a belt rather than a water jet table like the other two. A WJ table is nowhere near as flat/level as my belt. Since it sits flat on the belt it takes all thickness variation out of the table. It probes the slab at the start and end of each miter.

Give me a call if you'd like and I can tell you more. I'm typing on my phone and it sucks! My cell is in my signature.

[Alex DiPietro]

Joe's machine is a totally different beast. Unless you have 2000sq ft (maybe more?), literally to devote to a your machine, its not for you...

But yes, belts and tables are way flatter and more stable than typical water jet tables.

[Joe Durfee]

Alex is correct, it is a large machine. More like 1,600SF

But, it is the best solution for mitering with the ability to have a waterjet.

[fischertile]

WOW that's a lot of real estate. Joe I'm going to take you up on your offer and shoot you a call, it will probably be later today or Monday as I'm on the road today and off tomorrow.

The first thing that comes to mind with a "belt" system tho is how often do you have to replace that sucker, it seems between the jet and blade it would get chewed up pretty quick, I'm sure my inexperience with this is shining bright right now but what am I missing?

[Dan R.]

The jet does not engage with the piece while it is on the belt.
The part is moved to a separate water jet area.

[Joe Durfee]

Dan's right, separate WJ area. The saw blade does not cut into the belt either. It skims it. Ze Germanz describe it as a bed of mushrooms. There is a bunch of bumps that the slab sits on. The blade pushes them put of the way as it passes.

[GuyboR]

I think this is the video Joe shared way back.

https://youtu.be/_8ieGQ-WRpo

[peterp1973]

Breton Combicut and a Northwood Sawjet were the other two.

The biggest difference is that my machine saw cuts on a belt rather than a water jet table like the other two. A WJ table is nowhere near as flat/level as my belt. Since it sits flat on the belt it takes all thickness variation out of the table. It probes the slab at the start and end of each miter.

Give me a call if you'd like and I can tell you more. I'm typing on my phone and it sucks! My cell is in my signature.

I have Sekon software running on my GMM Intra with probe.
I have the option to probe at the beginning and end of miter also.
At the moments I only probe at the centre of the cut.
My question is.
What is the benefit of doing it the way you described as I don't understand how the saw calculates the cut from 2 probed points.

[Joe Durfee]

Burkhardt never gave us the option to just probe once, to be honest. So that is the only way we've known.

I don't really understand how it adjusts to account for varying thickness either, I'm told that it does. But, I don't get how it would know to adjust all of the other lines connected to that geometry, especially if it cuts the miter last.

All I know is our miters are accurate to within a 1mm or so for most materials. Smaller pieces can move slightly, but for the most part it's awesomely accurate!

[Alex DiPietro]

When a machine probes two points it takes the average of the two points. The thickness of the "sheet" and its relationship to the inclination of the blade can be adjusted in the g code by the cnc post cycle generation. So there is no actual change in geometry.

[Joe Durfee]

I get that, but what happens when I snap two pieces together at the miter and it decides it needs to adjust them. I have no measurable way to determine if it adjusts the tool path or if that is just a salesman feature used to sell a machine. If it adjusts and I have a super tight layout, pieces could be cut off the slab theoretically. I've not see it happen, for that reason anyway but it's something I've thought about.

[SbergeronMG]

It doesn't even play with the G code actually only change your g54 (zero of the top of the slab)
As they are working in absolute. I've actually ask that question to salesman (Breton, brembana)
They say that it will compensate the toolpath but I found it hard to believe if your probing 4 point that
It will break your line and integrate a z coordinate from probe point. If so that is of the chart, but if it is an
Average of probe point I found we can do that pretty accurate with a micrometer the only down side is adding
Operator error and machine calibration (man made). Where the probe point take your machine calibration to done
And so is your slab thickness.

We get pretty good result with our smartcut without probe everything within 1/32. The only hard thing is cut pattern to avoid piece from
Moving, you can't really nest a slab like you are usually doing you also have to think Which cut you want to do first.

[Joe Percoco]

I guess I am just too old school but after 40 years of this I just don't see some of these high tech super expensive machines doing everything you want the way you want it to. After mitering for decades on a bridge saw face up, investing in an inexpensive miter saw that cuts face down is a real treat. Bridge saw is running while you are mitering on the other saw. Cheap, very accurate and you can knock out very small pieces, aprons, etc so easy it is stupid.
Just my opinion...

[Alex DiPietro]

I guess I am just too old school but after 40 years of this I just don't see some of these high tech super expensive machines doing everything you want the way you want it to. After mitering for decades on a bridge saw face up, investing in an inexpensive miter saw that cuts face down is a real treat. Bridge saw is running while you are mitering on the other saw. Cheap, very accurate and you can knock out very small pieces, aprons, etc so easy it is stupid.
Just my opinion...

All good if you are only mitering rectangles. And if you are only mitering rectangles, mitering on a cnc saw or a saw jet is super fast. To get a rectangle that has to go to a miter saw has to hit a bridge saw first. If your bridge saw is a cnc is nearly as easy to miter on the saw as it is to cut 90 degree. We miter nearly every day.

[Ger Vanderbas]

If I may speak on the topic. May I mention that one of the machines that one of the posters here mentioned was indeed a 2010 version of our machine.

Might I also mention that I personally sold it, and eventually was part of the team to improve the hardware and software done in 2014.

Also, for the customer that was originally unhappy with the automatic mitering system, I personally, and without hesitation, assisted them to sell the machine at market value price (and without a commission personally) to a client whom is still happily using the machine, also on miters, however perhaps not as difficult.

These are some of the rest of the facts of that situation perhaps not mentioned below ground.

There have been more than 40 sold since this one including several to other SFA members. Not sure how many of the others, and I guess really not my issue. I do regret the 2010 version was not suitable for the client, but I stood behind my product and still stand behind my treatment of this customer over a much longer period than a few blog posts could fairly cover.

The new machine which began production (2013) offers a direct drive where the tilting is done at the pivot point of mass, and offers multiple .new improved features such as particular alignment of the plane of blade and jet during all tilting operations. We are not requiring two tables and a different cutting surface.

There are multiple machines installed in California, including two under way as we speak, that we'd love to show you before you decide. If you'd like to show us a project in a challenging material to miter up for you, we will do this as a test piece as a condition of an order without reservation.

Mr. Hank Mazzola is our representative in your area. hmazzola@bretonusa.com or feel free to call me directly.

Kind Regards,

G