SFA

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:05 am**

Can anyone using the green vacuum pods chime in on the accuracy tolerance or share what you see by way of variance in profiles... we run a couple profiles where even small variation will cause issues on the face of the part...I can find it published anywhere

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:27 pm**

In my experience, the tolerance is better than blicks by far. We run an R3 all the time. Any issues we have are not from the pods but from the material shape or table being out of plane a little.

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:36 pm**

Thanks Andy...that was my worry...

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:22 pm**

Hello Niedens22,

I can tell you that we have a stated tolerance of +.05mm(+.002")/-.00mm(-.000"). No other pod manufacturer has a stated tolerance. While not a user of BVC pods (I am sure you can see my bias) I can say that I've had customers that expressed tolerance and accuracy issues with BVC pods. We have tested them as well and found that they are rarely consistent in the height.

I can say we will stand behind our product accuracy 100%. Any variance on a new pod would be warrantied by us. We have a lot of fabricators with our product. We've have been in business for over 25 years. Accuracy is rarely, if ever an issue.

BTW- Customary for you to fill in your signature and tell us who you are.

Thanks!
Klint

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:37 pm**

Hi Klint...figured out my signature...new to this so i didnt take the time to fill in the blanks...lol

We currently use Blick pods on our machines and they are starting to give us issues...(most of which is our own doing) and just began looking into other options...we have been very happy overall with our Blick pods but as you know...employees are not as nice to things that are not theirs...what i am not willing to give up is our accuracy...we like to run our parts to completion where possible and have worked very hard on our set up to get those results...its just aggravating that one mishandle and a pod is out of rotation because the corner is caved in and causing it to sit up off the table...BVC claims to have a .006 tolerance which is still outside where our set up is now...

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:06 pm**

All good. Glad you filled it in!

Sorry to hear about that, it is challenging to change an employees mindset so they act like the equipment is theirs and treat it as if they paid for it. But hey, I am an employee and I figured it out. Don't give up yet!

None the less, it doesn't mean you should compromise on accuracy. Especially now as fabricators are shelling out big $$$ on tool presetters, accuracy (tools, pods and machine) is the #1 thing that will affect a finished, completed part from your CNC. When our pods are used correctly, no one will match our accuracy. To boot, our pods are fastened together they won't fall apart from day to day use.

If the damage to the bottom is such that you cant bend it back out and file flat, you can replace the bottom plate. Contrary to many beliefs, our pods are field repairable. The top requires additional work, but it can be done in your shop.

Let me know if I can send you pricing on a replacement plate.

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:23 pm**

Daniel,
As Andy said above,

Andy Ross wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:27 pm
In my experience, the tolerance is better than blicks by far. We run an R3 all the time. Any issues we have are not from the pods but from the material shape or table being out of plane a little.

The tolerance is .006 as you stated. I know changing products can be tough at times as you are so invested in one certain product. If it would be of your interest I would be happy to refer you to purchasers of BVC from Helix that do not have issues with said tolerances. With the Green pods you can buy one or one hundred. I guarantee you will be satisfied or I will pay the shipping back. I only say this so that you can try the product to see if it works for you. In the case you are wondering if you can mix them to try them. Its not something I would suggest but, as usual, I have plenty of customers that do mix pods on tables without issues.

If I may ask, do you run a cal wheel before running profiles?
(hope I am not intruding as you asked for users, not salesman of said product)

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:43 am**

Tolerance isn't the only advantage to the green pods. For employees, they can be pretty rough with green pods with no damage to the table or the pods. I can also grab six 200x400 pods at once and carry them to the CNC because they are so light. Leaning over the table and placing pods is a lot less work. Additionally, we have had far better results with pieces not moving with the green pods. I'm happy we switched and couldn't imagine going back to metal pods.

I got a mess of blick pods if you want to buy them.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:04 am**

Alex_Bores wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:23 pm
The tolerance is .006 as you stated.

.006 what? KM?

There is no way!!! You are going to make a claim that a product made in a mold and press fit together has a tolerance of .006(whatevers)???

I'll measure some of the Green Cups I have here in the shop and show you how far out they are... some are off the 105mm height by .5mm!

Here is what I will say, we excel at the fundamentals of what a suction cup should be. Accurate, reliable and made of quality components that you can rely on to get the job done.

I'll start a new post with the measurements so as not to drag it out here.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:13 pm**

Klint, can you explain your procedure for measuring the pods? Do you set them on a table and measure them or do you have a more accurate way.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:39 pm**

I am sure the procedure is by means of a height gauge zeroed from a table where the cup is locked on the base either mechanically or by suction and then measured from the table to the top of the cup. You can either use a touch probe on the machine or mount a magnetic dial indicator on your machine head to check height consistency. Again if doing this on the machine the suction cup bases have to be sucked down.

I am 100% behind Klint on how the green cups can not hold .006(whatever)

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:23 pm**

We've switched to green and have no tolerance issues to complain about. No, we haven't taken a micrometer to each pod but the finished product is what I care about and it has not been an issue. The green pods hold pieces much better than metal and have very little maintenance. To chime in on weight, green is much easier to handle and will not damage the table or the pod itself if an operator drops a pod.

To be worried about .006 or .5 MM is ludicrous. Your table likely has more deviation than that in spots. Take Alex up on his offer, measure each pod as it sits on the table, run some test pieces and if the tolerance is unbearable, send them back.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm**

Andy,

Below is a video we made years ago on how to measure a suction cup.

https://youtu.be/3mhwXWe4I9c

Posted: **Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:55 am**

I posted a suggestion in the other thread regarding the measuring procedure.

Posted: **Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:35 am**

We have been having some trouble with our profile using green pods... we run a 6mm top and 3mm bottom radius on 90% of our jobs...I was having fits because we would get arbitrary spots that the bit appeared to be coming up so far it was cutting into the top... so we would have a clean 6mm radius on most of the x on one piece, then for last foot or so of x it would grow until it turned up the y, it would actually dig into the top causing a sort of mini-ogee look.. ?!??! it happened in different corners on different size pieces on 2 separate machines.... we checked the tables... both within .005... when we checked the pods ... I had them sucked to the table but had to push down on the top ( somewhat unscientific!!!!) but I had to stick my dial indicator to an empty cone so didn't have the height... but I was coming up with some variation... .03-.04.. which seems small to me but my tech thought it could be enough to make the difference....

We have actually replaced a few tops due to this problem...

I did purchase the pods at 3 different times so now we have them numbered and are trying to find out who the "tall boys" are... but as a fix, we lowered all tools so the profile never exceeds the 6mm radius..at the biggest .... and if we have to soften some areas that are sharper than that .. we do by hand.... kind of irritating when you make the commitment to go fully digital to minimize hand work and end up doing it ... but beats replacing tops!!!!

Has anyone tried milling their whole set?

Posted: **Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:16 am**

Chris,

Just curious, did BVC cover the cost of replacing those tops?

Also, imo, there is no way to mill the BVC pods, trimming the rubber top would ruin the lip seal that is integrated in the rubber pad.

I’m glad you shared your experience, I have a lot of customers say the same thing.

Re-working tops and chasing down inaccurate pods would be extremely frustrating and time consuming, all adding up to real $$$.

Posted: **Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:19 am**

cjconnelly wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:35 am
We have been having some trouble with our profile using green pods... we run a 6mm top and 3mm bottom radius on 90% of our jobs...I was having fits because we would get arbitrary spots that the bit appeared to be coming up so far it was cutting into the top... so we would have a clean 6mm radius on most of the x on one piece, then for last foot or so of x it would grow until it turned up the y, it would actually dig into the top causing a sort of mini-ogee look.. ?!??! it happened in different corners on different size pieces on 2 separate machines.... we checked the tables... both within .005... when we checked the pods ... I had them sucked to the table but had to push down on the top ( somewhat unscientific!!!!) but I had to stick my dial indicator to an empty cone so didn't have the height... but I was coming up with some variation... .03-.04.. which seems small to me but my tech thought it could be enough to make the difference....

We have actually replaced a few tops due to this problem...

I did purchase the pods at 3 different times so now we have them numbered and are trying to find out who the "tall boys" are... but as a fix, we lowered all tools so the profile never exceeds the 6mm radius..at the biggest .... and if we have to soften some areas that are sharper than that .. we do by hand.... kind of irritating when you make the commitment to go fully digital to minimize hand work and end up doing it ... but beats replacing tops!!!!

Has anyone tried milling their whole set?
[

We had the exact same issue and used the same "fix"

Posted: **Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:42 pm**

I had the same issue and found it was mostly on quartz and the bigger the radius corners we're worse. For me it was a combination of the table needing milled and using pods as close to the profiled edge as possible. Not saying pods couldn't be the problem but for us it wasnt pods at all. We run a 3mm profile all day everyday with no issues in consistency at all unless we are forced to put pods out of place on weird shaped stuff.

.04mm is not enough to show at all.

Just thinking....tools that aren't dressed properly will do all kinds of weird stuff.

Posted: **Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:28 pm**

.04mm isn’t, .040” is

Posted: **Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:44 pm**

There is nothing more aggravating than spending huge amounts of money for machines that are capable of milling down to the .001... as well as the painstaking hours to get our table inside of .003 over 16 ft ... then buying top quality tools... just to find out that a pod or two is too short and tearing up tops....006 of an inch is definitely enough to see the difference... even if you adjust your profiles down you're still going to have issues where parts come together at the seam and the profiles not matching up... I'm very proud that we rarely even have to blend our OG profiles at a seam... I'm sure everyone's quality expectations are different but there are many of the darker quartz material that we cannot match the color and finish that comes off of our machine especially if you're just going to touch it up in random places... some of those materials we can end up costing our sales hours and days... I understand holding power to be very important... but I can remake one small top a lot faster than I can fix multiple messed up kitchens.

Posted: **Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:35 pm**

Pod accuracy is a big deal. I have never seen a Blick pod out of spec. We carry the BVC cups also and only can say that they are not interchangeable with blick pods. Most of my edge issues are with machines being out of level, and pod setups by the programmers. The programmer where I was just at this week had his pods 4-5 inches away from the profiled edges. I recommend no more than an 1-1/2 away. Most guys won’t because they are afraid of operators not paying attention. As an engineer, the manufacturing methods that blick use do afford their stated tolerances. A molded product will never be able to hold that tolerance without additional machining. But, none of my customers have complained about the BVC cups we sell. Maybe it is due to our tools having such aggressive angles of clearance for our shapes that it hasn’t showed up. But I can say I can see it as an issue on those tools from other manufacturers who have the tangent lead out angles coming out of their tools where you most definitely need the highest tolerance pods available or switch tools.

Posted: **Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:35 am**

Niedens22 wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:44 pm
There is nothing more aggravating than spending huge amounts of money for machines that are capable of milling down to the .001... as well as the painstaking hours to get our table inside of .003 over 16 ft ... then buying top quality tools... just to find out that a pod or two is too short and tearing up tops....006 of an inch is definitely enough to see the difference... even if you adjust your profiles down you're still going to have issues where parts come together at the seam and the profiles not matching up... I'm very proud that we rarely even have to blend our OG profiles at a seam... I'm sure everyone's quality expectations are different but there are many of the darker quartz material that we cannot match the color and finish that comes off of our machine especially if you're just going to touch it up in random places... some of those materials we can end up costing our sales hours and days... I understand holding power to be very important... but I can remake one small top a lot faster than I can fix multiple messed up kitchens.

I have not bought any of the BVC pods and have no experience using them, but if they are the best why is no cnc manufacturer including them with their machines, besides they are cheaper and end-user repairable. These are cnc's we are running and any difference in height is not good. We finish 90% of our parts on the cnc and have no time for redo's. What is the big deal with them anyway, if you maintain your equipment and vacuum system correctly you should always have good vacuum and not push parts, also this is the stone business, if you can't pick up a Blick pod and put it on the table because of weight, you are in the wrong place. Next is why have it separate, maybe we are different but we have destroyed 1 pod in 8 years and had Blick rebuild maybe 10 pods out of 70+ we have owned, and I would say if you crash your tools into them on a regular basis you better be finding someone who cares to run your machines, the separating thing is just another point of failure. I'll keep my Blick pods and y'all can have the plastic.

Posted: **Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:46 pm**

oatesgranite wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:35 am

Niedens22 wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:44 pm
also this is the stone business, if you can't pick up a Blick pod and put it on the table because of weight, you are in the wrong place.
[
I think the same thing every time I hear that

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:02 pm**

Mr. Oates writes...

..."I have not bought any of the BVC pods and have no experience using them, but if they are the best why is no cnc manufacturer including them with their machines?.."

Breton includes Blick pods with every NC router shipped. To my knowledge ONE customer out of hundreds and hundreds asked to supply his own set.

I have experienced Blick products and his team's professionalism for over 25 years and choose to remain loyal.

John Fallon
Breton USA

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Green pod accuracy tolerance

Green pod accuracy tolerance

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