Cutting on Pods

[mike@BMG]

Hey Guys,

Anyone out there with a CNC Fabcenter cutting on the pods alone? I know Park and a few other guys say not too because of the "Slurry" and you would "scratch the slab" but in my opinion there is probably more slurry when using a finger bit opposed to a 1/8 saw blade.

We are looking into purchasing a Fabcenter, most likely a Denver Unika 5, as Park and Northwood are not full 5 axis machines and the Breton Fabcenter was not exactly what we were looking for. Anyone have a Denver Unika 5 with some feedback?

So my question is, to anyone with a Fabcenter. Instead of cutting then taking off all your pieces and setting up the pods then putting everything back on. Has anyone just cut right on the pods and set up some Styrofoam blocks the same height as the pods to support the leftovers? That way after cutting you remove the waste and the Styrofoam blocks and start your CNC program. Eliminating the time to unload the entire table then load it up again.

Let me know any opinions on this and if there is someone on the west coast with a Denver Unika 5 I would love to talk to you and get your feedback on the machine michael@bordignon.ca

[Todd Luster]

Hi Michael.

I have a Northwood UFC with shuttle table and was here during the infancy stage of this word "Fabcentering".
I have on occasion done what you are talking about.
When I first bought it, I thought I'd do it a lot.
in reality(atleast in my opinion)its not real practical and takes too much more time typically.
You spend lots more time programming.
You end up having to fingerbit many paths at 12-15"/minute that would be typically sawn at 120"/min.
You have to be extremely more delicate with pod placement because of saw overcuts.
You spend a lot of time either on table while machine is running or having to pause it to clear pieces.

I think you will find sawing on foam, then setting pods to router.
Just my $.02

[luke getz]

take a look at a CMS "VNT" fabcenter....they cut on the pods and then profile and polish without even having to move the pieces - so you can lay a full slab on the pods and take finished pieces off, definitely worth a look.

[Todd Luster]

take a look at a CMS "VNT" fabcenter....they cut on the pods and then profile and polish without even having to move the pieces - so you can lay a full slab on the pods and take finished pieces off, definitely worth a look.

Antonio from Winnipeg has this Setup and bought right after I bought mine.
I'd be curious how much he cuts on pods.
And I'm not saying it doesnt work, just saying I haven't seen it practical for daily ops.
Hopefully Antinio chimes in.

[mike@BMG]

Hi Michael.

I have a Northwood UFC with shuttle table and was here during the infancy stage of this word "Fabcentering".
I have on occasion done what you are talking about.
When I first bought it, I thought I'd do it a lot.
in reality(atleast in my opinion)its not real practical and takes too much more time typically.
You spend lots more time programming.
You end up having to fingerbit many paths at 12-15"/minute that would be typically sawn at 120"/min.
You have to be extremely more delicate with pod placement because of saw overcuts.
You spend a lot of time either on table while machine is running or having to pause it to clear pieces.

I think you will find sawing on foam, then setting pods to router.
Just my $.02

Good to hear your opinion on that, It really is just an idea for my father and I if cutting on the pods really would be quicker opposed to the typical (cut then onto a dolly to be put on the cnc then back on a dolly then onto a finishing bench. We do not do any commercial work we only do high end residential with 2 bridge saw's and 2 CNC's we thought this may be an option to lay the slab down and do as much work on it as possible.

Thanks again

[mike@BMG]

take a look at a CMS "VNT" fabcenter....they cut on the pods and then profile and polish without even having to move the pieces - so you can lay a full slab on the pods and take finished pieces off, definitely worth a look.

\

Hey Luke,

Thanks for the info, I was actually on their website and didn't even see that.
Do you have that machine by any chance?

[luke getz]

I do not have a cnc yet, but it is one of the options we are looking at when we eventually do go digital. the reason I liked the concept is that we currently have a very small shop, and it looks like it would be both a time and space saver to not have to unload cut parts on to carts and then set up the pods and then reload them for the profiling and polishing stage. plus the option to have the 5th axis to me would make it an awesome fabcenter.

the other reason to like them is that they are about 25 minutes from my shop. so that should make getting parts and service much easier and quicker.

[scott m]

Its no problem at all. I did probably 1000 slabs this way on the breton fabcenter. Its certainly more efficient to do it this way and you will save way more material by tight nesting. I used blocks of wood to catch the fall off and you don't need much. It should be 1/8 less then your pods. The table held up fine, no problems.

What Todd pointed to is the problem. If you don't have software that will automatically program a slab forget it. You will be there for hours toolpathing a slab. The breton does it all automatic and you dont set one tool patch either cutting it or profiling. I used to just adjust toolpaths or take them out (common line cutting) or start a fingerbit from outside the slab so you don't have to drill a hole.

Fabcentering is more about software then hardware. If you don't have some jazzy software, the real art of fabcentering is lost. At that point you are just cutting taking off and routering.

Also, fabcentering is not about production, it is about efficiency. If you want to produce alot, a fabcenter is not it. Get a saw and a router and you will produce more.

[jrupert3]

At the show last week I met with Luke Donatoni as we're in market for a CNC SAW (they had CNC saw at the show that was very impressive, software seemed even more impressive). We briefly discussed the ECHO, http://www.donatonimacchine.eu/macchinariEnglish.html

This is their version of a fabcenter, what I found very interesting is the bed had two sections 1. a standard wood table for cutting and 2. an aluminum section for pods to be setup on.

Once the CNC saw completed the cutting cycle, the automatic vacuum lifter picked the piece up, and moved it to the pods that were already positioned on the aluminum section of the bed to begin the router function.

I'm not in the market for a fabcenter so I didn't ask many questions, but if I was this is a machine I would explore much more.

[Alex DiPietro]

Donatoni's are great machines. Their aren't many this side of the pond, but they are real machines, running great software as far as I can tell. We saw a shop full of them in italy three years ago.

[deepwater]

I do it on my Denver HT. I ordered my saw with an aluminum table and a vacuum pods. However, I have found that putting rubber horse stall mats on the table is much easier and faster. With the slab laying on the rubber table I can but the slab and drop the sink. Much faster then location back stops, and placing all the needed vacuum pods. However, having this dual flexibilty is worth its weight in gold. I am not limited to just rubber mats eaitherI can put wood or styofoam on my table if I want too and I have done that as the need arises

I have a thread in the members lounge.

image by webster.david, on Flickr

image by webster.david, on Flickr

Lot more pictures here
https://flic.kr/ps/ubFtz

[mike@BMG]

I do it on my Denver HT. I ordered my saw with an aluminum table and a vacuum pods. However, I have found that putting rubber horse stall mats on the table is much easier and faster. With the slab laying on the rubber table I can but the slab and drop the sink. Much faster then location back stops, and placing all the needed vacuum pods. However, having this dual flexibilty is worth its weight in gold. I am not limited to just rubber mats eaitherI can put wood or styofoam on my table if I want too and I have done that as the need arises

I have a thread in the members lounge.

image by webster.david, on Flickr

image by webster.david, on Flickr

Lot more pictures here
https://flic.kr/ps/ubFtz

Hey David a few quick questions for you.
We have narrowed it down to a Denver, Donatoni or the Breton.

On your Skema you have to manually put the tools on correct?

How is the service with Denver?

How do you find the software?
Do you find it is still simple enough to run in manual mode to make a quick cut.

[mike@BMG]

Its no problem at all. I did probably 1000 slabs this way on the breton fabcenter. Its certainly more efficient to do it this way and you will save way more material by tight nesting. I used blocks of wood to catch the fall off and you don't need much. It should be 1/8 less then your pods. The table held up fine, no problems.

What Todd pointed to is the problem. If you don't have software that will automatically program a slab forget it. You will be there for hours toolpathing a slab. The breton does it all automatic and you dont set one tool patch either cutting it or profiling. I used to just adjust toolpaths or take them out (common line cutting) or start a fingerbit from outside the slab so you don't have to drill a hole.

Fabcentering is more about software then hardware. If you don't have some jazzy software, the real art of fabcentering is lost. At that point you are just cutting taking off and routering.

Also, fabcentering is not about production, it is about efficiency. If you want to produce alot, a fabcenter is not it. Get a saw and a router and you will produce more.

Good to hear you had success doing it this way and cheers for the advice. I believe I know the answer to this but the Breton fabcenter is not a 5 Axis correct?

[Ken Lago]

Not 100% sure but I don't believe any of the fabcenters are 5axis

[Antonio Almonte]

Hi Michael,

We have the CMS Unimax and have had it for 4 years now and going strong. The Unimax is a 5 axis machine with a 40hp spindle. It can be used as a true cnc saw or putting a slab on the machine right to final polish without moving anything.

I echo Scott in that programming or the ease of programming is key. CMS uses easystone and it programs just like it says in the name. EASY. From start to finish on programming, my forwoman takes about 5-10 minutes from a cleaned up digital template to program a slab. Processing a slab can be anywhere between 45 minutes to 2 hrs depending on complexity, edge detail, number of pieces etc.

Sorry, gotta run right now but if you have more questions about the machine let me know.

[deepwater]

Hey David a few quick questions for you.
We have narrowed it down to a Denver, Donatoni or the Breton.

On your Skema you have to manually put the tools on correct?

How is the service with Denver?

How do you find the software?
Do you find it is still simple enough to run in manual mode to make a quick cut.

Yes with my HT we manually change the tools. However, we typically are not doing edge work with the saw. Mostly changing between core and finger bit which takes all of 30 seconds. The tooling is mounted on ISO40 cones and pop in and out with the press of a button. If you want to do a lot of edge work I would look strongly at the Unika. The Unika is much more of a machine then a standard fab center. It is a true 5-axis and you can even mill the statue of Davide if you choose.

Concerning the software. Denver, Noat and Donatoni all use Taglio software (Logotag , 3djand Frestag )from my understanding so the playing field is equal there.

Denver support is top notch and they have always helped me to got me back in operation whenever an issue has came up.

[scott m]

Are you using a fingerbit to cut that sink on horse mats and the slab doesn't move??? Also, I guess you core a hole, put in a pause and remove the core or just slowly circle in???? I find it amazing that it wont move the slab or the horse mat.

I would also look at the unimax. I loved easy stone so much (was my first cnc software), that I continued to use it to do my cleanups after I bought the Breton, then once in the breton assign the type of edges you want on it and it figures out how to cut it, etc. We also cut the rod slots on the machine, which is great when you have skethy material.....

You have to remember when you run a full slab on pods you will have 30 or so pods plus 8 or so wood blocks on one setup. The only machine I know that can handle that is the Breton. It also has manifold pods, so you only have 2 lines from the machine to them and the rest are from that pod to the satellite pods. IT would be a terrible jungle otherwise.

The idea of the unimax is nice to have a true CNC saw to just cut on foam. This way you can router one part or two parts at a time using the same number of pods. I used to like to that as it can keep things moving. Instead of your guys looking at the machine for two hours to give them parts, they can work on a part while another is under way. However, for working by yourself, cutting on pods is the way to go.

[ChrisGraham]

At the show last week I met with Luke Donatoni as we're in market for a CNC SAW (they had CNC saw at the show that was very impressive, software seemed even more impressive). We briefly discussed the ECHO, http://www.donatonimacchine.eu/macchinariEnglish.html

This is their version of a fabcenter, what I found very interesting is the bed had two sections 1. a standard wood table for cutting and 2. an aluminum section for pods to be setup on.

Once the CNC saw completed the cutting cycle, the automatic vacuum lifter picked the piece up, and moved it to the pods that were already positioned on the aluminum section of the bed to begin the router function.

I'm not in the market for a fabcenter so I didn't ask many questions, but if I was this is a machine I would explore much more.

I personally haven't seen this set up from donatoni. I have been researching their saws, but if this a double table setup as described?? This would be a nobrainer setup, especially if you do saw programs at the machine via camera set up while the router was running. Great concept.

We currently are running a northwood fabcenter and have cut slabs on pods many times. But if we had it to do over it would be a cnc router and a saw purchase. Two separate machines.

[jrupert3]

I personally haven't seen this set up from donatoni. I have been researching their saws, but if this a double table setup as described?? This would be a nobrainer setup, especially if you do saw programs at the machine via camera set up while the router was running. Great concept.

We currently are running a northwood fabcenter and have cut slabs on pods many times. But if we had it to do over it would be a cnc router and a saw purchase. Two separate machines.

I'll see if I still have the brochure Luca gave me on it, I haven't seen it on their website before either. I might have the model wrong Echo vs the Kronos. I'll check tomorrow to see if I still have the info.

[jrupert3]

Looking at David pictures and his setup with the Denver, it doesn't look much different than. A section of the bed designated for PODS and the rest for cutting. The Denver bed can be 100% cutting or 100% pods/routing, I'm not sure the Donatoni could do that.

[deepwater]

Are you using a fingerbit to cut that sink on horse mats and the slab doesn't move??? Also, I guess you core a hole, put in a pause and remove the core or just slowly circle in???? I find it amazing that it wont move the slab or the horse mat.

I would also look at the unimax. I loved easy stone so much (was my first cnc software), that I continued to use it to do my cleanups after I bought the Breton, then once in the breton assign the type of edges you want on it and it figures out how to cut it, etc. We also cut the rod slots on the machine, which is great when you have skethy material.....

You have to remember when you run a full slab on pods you will have 30 or so pods plus 8 or so wood blocks on one setup. The only machine I know that can handle that is the Breton. It also has manifold pods, so you only have 2 lines from the machine to them and the rest are from that pod to the satellite pods. IT would be a terrible jungle otherwise.

The idea of the unimax is nice to have a true CNC saw to just cut on foam. This way you can router one part or two parts at a time using the same number of pods. I used to like to that as it can keep things moving. Instead of your guys looking at the machine for two hours to give them parts, they can work on a part while another is under way. However, for working by yourself, cutting on pods is the way to go.

Anything under 1/3 of a slab I will clamp down or us pods. I core drill a hole the saw head comes to the front of the table to "ask for a new tool" (lack of a better way of saying it). Since the slab is on the table I just pull the core cut out of the hole, pop in the finger bit and press start.

For example when I cut a kitchen I cut the sink from the granite slab first and then slice the slab up into parts all on the rubber mats.
( In this video - It takes about 5 min to cut the sink hole) (and then about 5-10 min to slice up the slab depending complexity and materail harness)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7bB9kFE1E4

If it is a small part I can just clamp down or use the vacuum pods. It really depends on how I feel like doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSapP4huls8

[Miles]

David,

Anybody that knows where to buy a rubber horse stall matt, or even knows what one is, has to be at least 50 years old. Who are trying to fool?

[deepwater]

David,

Anybody that knows where to buy a rubber horse stall matt, or even knows what one is, has to be at least 50 years old. Who are trying to fool?

You forget I am in South Georgia - not city slicking ATL. Just ask Jr to send you those picks of my 36 yr old self.

[scott m]

Wow, that is a big innovation. The breton had the ability to cut on pods, not on pods, shiny up or down. If I would have know about that, I probably would have cut on mats alot. That software is all automatic and it cores first, finger bits then saws. Because the finger bit is done first on the full slab, I doubt it would move. I tried it on foam, and the foam slid on the table. I was gonna make up clamps to clamp the full slab to the table, but never got there. This way on simple eased edged jobs, I could have just cut and send to the floor.

[GlobalEquipment]

Not 100% sure but I don't believe any of the fabcenters are 5axis

There are 5 axis fabcenters available.
Edited for content by Dan R.