Please Critique My Templating Time

[the_dionysian_1]

I'm attaching an image of a file (and maybe the file itself sans customer names if the forum allows it) that shows my average times for doing each part of my templating & programming job. If any of you are willing to look it over & give me some constructive criticism about it, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm looking to cut down my time & find maybe where my methods are overkill specifically. So if something stands out as odd, ask me to try & explain. Perhaps with your help, I can refine certain things & 'trim the fat' so to speak.

Regarding the image: you may need to right click, view image, & zoom in a bit.

[BrianStoiber]

Coming from my companies side of the process, and not to push our products, it seems like you are spending a lot of time with the template. With the exception of those three outliers (44.22, 27.03, and 48.85 hours jobs due to waiting for approval), your Template Appt and Template Drawing is almost half your time.

I would guess by the time spent at the Template Appt you are making a physical template, then measuring it at the shop and drawing it in CAD which is then sent into Slabsmith. Am I correct? If that is the case, I would suggest looking into digital templating. Like I said before, I would love to push our lasers, but digital templating in general will drastically cut that time down.

[the_dionysian_1]

Coming from my companies side of the process, and not to push our products, it seems like you are spending a lot of time with the template. With the exception of those three outliers (44.22, 27.03, and 48.85 hours jobs due to waiting for approval), your Template Appt and Template Drawing is almost half your time.

I would guess by the time spent at the Template Appt you are making a physical template, then measuring it at the shop and drawing it in CAD which is then sent into Slabsmith. Am I correct? If that is the case, I would suggest looking into digital templating. Like I said before, I would love to push our lasers, but digital templating in general will drastically cut that time down.
[

No, I've been doing digital for about 7 years now. I started via using your LT-55. The reason it takes the amount of time it does is because lasers are not foolproof. I learned very much from using the LT-55 how critical it is that the laser doesn't deviate from it's Zero position. Unfortunately, with the LT-55, raising & lowering the tripod guarantees the scan will be off because the cranking action of the tripod rotates & shimmies the laser. Add in the fact that lasers are only about 1/16 in. accurate. From one point to the next that could be 1/8 in. out of reality. Now add in the cases where your forced to shoot at obtuse angles (post-it tape or no). Obtuse angles are almost always off in the scan. Every job I go on there are usually a few corners that end up being 1/4 in. off from reality. So I fix those in CAD. I'm using the LT2D/3D now & it's still the case.

I also find the re-positioning of the laser to be immensely time consuming. I dread having to do it. It was much easier to re-position the Leica 3D-Disto (I used one for about 3 years) since you could actually see on your screen, sans laser shine, what you were pointing at. With the LT2D/3D I have to walk over to where the laser is on the wall to see how close I am to my mark, then walk back over to the laser as light-footed as possible so as not to disturb the tripod, attempt to micro-adjust only to find I've gone just a hair too far. Re-positioning the laser can take 10 minutes at it's worst (depending on the size of the room & how far you have to walk to see how close the laser is to your mark). I've even had it where re-positioning just flat out didn't work no matter how dead on to the center of my marks I shot. When that happened, I was glad that I hand measure first so I could add in the parts that I couldn't scan once I got back to the office.

When I measure a job, I prepare for the worst (laser doesn't work, & breaks for any reason). My hand measurement method is such that I could hand measure & leave, then make the whole thing in CAD to within 1/16 in. accurate of reality. Does everyone else just trust their equipment no matter the conditions? Do people not double check the scanned measurements to make sure it's not wrong? I don't like to hear my installers say they had to dig out walls to get the seam to work or any problems of any kind. I want my installers to drop in the tops, epoxy the seams, fasten & silicone the sink, silicone or caulk where needed & then get outta there.

[BrianStoiber]

Seeing as your measurements are that far off, I would suggest calling the salesmen in your area (Ohio is Matt Thomson who lives in Columbus). Matt might be able to stop by and take a look to see if there is something wrong with the laser or tripod because it shouldn't be getting measurements that far out. Otherwise, you could call our office and speak to Matt in Service and arrange to have that laser come back to us for testing. If under warranty, we can have a loaner sent out to you for use while this one is being tested.

Matt Thomson
mthomson@laserproductsus.com
630-390-0439

[the_dionysian_1]

Seeing as your measurements are that far off, I would suggest calling the salesmen in your area (Ohio is Matt Thomson who lives in Columbus). Matt might be able to stop by and take a look to see if there is something wrong with the laser or tripod because it shouldn't be getting measurements that far out. Otherwise, you could call our office and speak to Matt in Service and arrange to have that laser come back to us for testing. If under warranty, we can have a loaner sent out to you for use while this one is being tested.

Matt Thomson
mthomson@laserproductsus.com
630-390-0439
[

I'm pretty sure this is normal for lasers. It's part of the sales pitch even, right? That the laser is accurate to 1/16 of an inch. So than it stands to reason that if one point is 1/16 of an inch off, then the next one is off 1/16 of an inch in the opposite direction, you get an overall measurement error of 1/8 inch. Additionally, is it not expected that if you shoot a surface with the laser at an obtuse angle to said surface, it's not able to accurately measure said surface? Furthermore, I don't usually have to correct EVERY corner. I do usually have to correct at least 1 or 2. The rest are about 1/32 to 3/32 off. Which, I don't bother correcting them at that point. I only correct things if they're 1/8 inch or more off from reality, and if it matters. For example, an open end or a seating side of an island? Not important. I'll leave those off so long as it's not crazy (usually it's not). But say, at a stove space? Yeah, can't afford to have that 1/8 inch off, especially if the reality is that the space is 30 inches & the scan came out with 29 7/8 inches.

The question is: how experienced are you with your own lasers? How many jobs have you measured? I've measured probably somewhere close to 1000. I've used an LT55, a Leica 3D Disto, and an LT2D/3D. All of them had the same results, with the LT55 being the worst due to the whole problem when needing to raise or lower the tripod head while scanning. Obviously, the 3D Disto & LT2D/3D doesn't have that problem because you never need to raise or lower the laser.

[Mtodd62406]

I currently use the LT 2d3d and I have yet to spend more than 45 min on one job and that was 100+sq ft with angles and arcs, I average about 20 min. So either like Brian said, your laser has something wrong with the calibration and needs to be fixed or your doing something wrong. For me, I position the tripod in the part of the room where I can see everything and prioritize the spots that are most crucial like wall to wall or cabinets panels so basically I get the most direct shot to those important spots. I also have the laser down as low on the base as possible at all times and just pull out and extend the legs that way the laser is like 6 inches above the cabinet height, I find if you raise the base of the laser up though it works it gets really wobbly. I'll put out any targets I need to use and then start shooting, I have noticed that when coming to the corner of the drywall I get a lot closer if not directly into the corner of the wall to get the dot as tight as possible and it eliminates the laser glare which would throw the measurements off. After I shoot everything and am confident that I got all the lines and crosses I unplug everything and then start double checking my measurements to the cabinets and offset for overhangs and also offset for relief cuts. I have been successfully templating for a while now and like I said from the moment I stop talking to the homeowner about details to me shaking their hand and leaving is an average of 20 mins averaging about 55 sq ft.

I think you might need to relax yourself a bit, slow down with the actual setup and shooting, fine tune what your doing and be OK with an 1/8" gap if need be.

[Mtodd62406]

Seeing as your measurements are that far off, I would suggest calling the salesmen in your area (Ohio is Matt Thomson who lives in Columbus). Matt might be able to stop by and take a look to see if there is something wrong with the laser or tripod because it shouldn't be getting measurements that far out. Otherwise, you could call our office and speak to Matt in Service and arrange to have that laser come back to us for testing. If under warranty, we can have a loaner sent out to you for use while this one is being tested.

Matt Thomson
mthomson@laserproductsus.com
630-390-0439
[

I'm pretty sure this is normal for lasers. It's part of the sales pitch even, right? That the laser is accurate to 1/16 of an inch. So than it stands to reason that if one point is 1/16 of an inch off, then the next one is off 1/16 of an inch in the opposite direction, you get an overall measurement error of 1/8 inch. Additionally, is it not expected that if you shoot a surface with the laser at an obtuse angle to said surface, it's not able to accurately measure said surface? Furthermore, I don't usually have to correct EVERY corner. I do usually have to correct at least 1 or 2. The rest are about 1/32 to 3/32 off. Which, I don't bother correcting them at that point. I only correct things if they're 1/8 inch or more off from reality, and if it matters. For example, an open end or a seating side of an island? Not important. I'll leave those off so long as it's not crazy (usually it's not). But say, at a stove space? Yeah, can't afford to have that 1/8 inch off, especially if the reality is that the space is 30 inches & the scan came out with 29 7/8 inches.

The question is: how experienced are you with your own lasers? How many jobs have you measured? I've measured probably somewhere close to 1000. I've used an LT55, a Leica 3D Disto, and an LT2D/3D. All of them had the same results, with the LT55 being the worst due to the whole problem when needing to raise or lower the tripod head while scanning. Obviously, the 3D Disto & LT2D/3D doesn't have that problem because you never need to raise or lower the laser.
[

Dude, I'm gonna say because of your recent posts that your a perfectionist and I don't really believe you when you say you DONT adjust tops that are out 1/32 - 3/32 of an inch on templates. I would say that your spending way too much time second guessing everything or trying too hard to get tops air tight. I would take them up on their offer to have the local rep come out and maybe he can break down some of your techniques first hand.

[STEVE NY]

Dude, I'm gonna say because of your recent posts that your a perfectionist and I don't really believe you when you say you DONT adjust tops that are out 1/32 - 3/32 of an inch on templates. I would say that your spending way too much time second guessing everything or trying too hard to get tops air tight. I would take them up on their offer to have the local rep come out and maybe he can break down some of your techniques first hand.

X 2

I don't think it's the laser that's broken.

[the_dionysian_1]

Dude, I'm gonna say because of your recent posts that your a perfectionist and I don't really believe you when you say you DONT adjust tops that are out 1/32 - 3/32 of an inch on templates. I would say that your spending way too much time second guessing everything or trying too hard to get tops air tight. I would take them up on their offer to have the local rep come out and maybe he can break down some of your techniques first hand.

X 2

I don't think it's the laser that's broken.
[

If you're going to bother saying that, maybe tell me how or why. What is your experience like? What problems do you run into? Do you just scan & not bother with double checking even the parts that may have been shot at obtuse angles?

[Ken Lago]

I used the lt55 for 10 years and only had 2 times the laser template was off, both times I traced it down to operator error.

[Ken Lago]

I as a boss would want to know how many hours is spent collecting and inputting all this data, and cost.

[Justzack]

I template with the leica and get quick reference measurements by hand, edit with the lt software and send to allencad. hit the dimension button and check that they are close. if you are making tops that tight your installers will hate it and you will have more problems in the field. trust the laser and use it.

[Justzack]

I template with the leica and get quick reference measurements by hand, edit with the lt software and send to allencad. hit the dimension button and check that they are close. if you are making tops that tight your installers will hate it and you will have more problems in the field. trust the laser and use it.
I would like to see drawings of the template times shown, we are missing the complexity of the job

[the_dionysian_1]

I used the lt55 for 10 years and only had 2 times the laser template was off, both times I traced it down to operator error.
[

I never left an LT55 scan without checking it. So I too rarely had a template off because I always made sure of the dimensions. I don't know why anyone would just scan & not check the dimensions.

[the_dionysian_1]

I as a boss would want to know how many hours is spent collecting and inputting all this data, and cost.
[

None of it was on the company dime. I'm doing this on my own time as I want to be better at my job. However, jotting down time on paper was actually requested by my boss. Making this excel spreadsheet & whatnot is what I've done on my own time.

[the_dionysian_1]

I template with the leica and get quick reference measurements by hand, edit with the lt software and send to allencad. hit the dimension button and check that they are close. if you are making tops that tight your installers will hate it and you will have more problems in the field. trust the laser and use it.
[

I do miss the Leica. Out of the three, the 3D Disto is my favorite. But I've never used it with LT software. Does the LT software control the laser, or do you scan the job & then open the scan in the LT software afterward? Not that it really matters, as I doubt I'll ever get another 3D Disto.

Also, "hit the dimension button" doesn't really tell the story though, right? It'll give you the dimensions of solid straight lines, but how is that helpful? A rectangle can be completely off from reality, yet still show correct dimensions on it's 'sides.' That's basic geometry. There's one dimension on top of all the sides that you need to actually know if the rectangle is correct. Which, as I've said, is only really crucial for certain parts of a countertop. Like say at a stove space or wall to wall piece. And I always put relief in my countertops. But I first want to know what the actual dimensions are prior to taking away real estate on the tops.

[the_dionysian_1]

I've attached what is the environment for the 3rd job on the spreadsheet. And a closeup of the actual drawing that the customer went with. I gave her 2 seam design options.

[the_dionysian_1]

On the far left of my AllenCAD environment is where I drop in the actual scan. I do my corrections there. Then I add in the actual overhangs & rest of the countertop. Mid left is the customer drawings. If there are design options I have multiple pages there that then get printed or PDF'd & emailed to the customer. Once they choose, the Mid right drawing is the shop drawing so the fabricators can measure the finished cut pieces to double check that they're correct, should they feel the need to. On the far right is the actual part that gets sent to AlphaCAM.

[the_dionysian_1]

Here's a job that I don't think I put on the spreadsheet because it's not done. The customer has given a down payment but wants the job done a little at a time. It's a bit more intricate than a typical job, which I love doing.

[the_dionysian_1]

This is the first job that's listed on the spreadsheet

[the_dionysian_1]

I added in the locations (in dark red) in which I had the laser. I had to re-position once in order to shoot all sides.

[Justzack]

I take physical measurement. I do not try to figure it to the 32 of an inch when I do they are quick measurements for reference.
As far as seam options to the customer. If they ask I tell them where I would put them and why. I also tell them I wont be sure until I lay it out on the actual slabs, so emailing them different seam options is 1 thing that is taking more time than it should.
Even being less than a year into the leica I would be upset if any of those templates took and hour to do.

If I have to relocate the laserI just save whatever I have shot,shut it down move it where it needs to be and start shooting under a different file.
I also see that you templated one that was missing a tall cabinet, I would not do that but thats just me. If everything isnt installed they are not ready for a template. if the cabinet maker ended up putting in a filler between the cabinets that would have screwed you. which I find ironic that you do not trust the laser to do its job but you trust the cabinet guy

I dont think that anyone is going to have the answers that you are looking for. I believe you are set in the way you do it.

the u shape with the raised bar. How many times did you move the laser to get that?

[the_dionysian_1]

I take physical measurement. I do not try to figure it to the 32 of an inch when I do they are quick measurements for reference.
As far as seam options to the customer. If they ask I tell them where I would put them and why. I also tell them I wont be sure until I lay it out on the actual slabs, so emailing them different seam options is 1 thing that is taking more time than it should.
Even being less than a year into the leica I would be upset if any of those templates took and hour to do.

If I have to relocate the laserI just save whatever I have shot,shut it down move it where it needs to be and start shooting under a different file.
I also see that you templated one that was missing a tall cabinet, I would not do that but thats just me. If everything isnt installed they are not ready for a template. if the cabinet maker ended up putting in a filler between the cabinets that would have screwed you. which I find ironic that you do not trust the laser to do its job but you trust the cabinet guy

I dont think that anyone is going to have the answers that you are looking for. I believe you are set in the way you do it.

the u shape with the raised bar. How many times did you move the laser to get that?
[

I didn't move the laser to do the raised bar. It's non-crucial dimensions because it has overhangs all the way around. So there's nothing that "pins" me.

As for the tall cabinet issue, that was discussed w/the customer. They understood the ramifications prior to me ever coming to template, so it was their choice. That's why I put it on the drawing that they approved. Legally speaking, it was done by customer orders.

I do discuss seam options at the template. This customer was being picky about it & was attempting to tell me how to layout the job on the slab. I didn't bother with arguing w/them & chose to instead present them options so they would feel good about it, as it was apparent to me that they were the type of person that wants to feel like they were in total control. That's certainly not anywhere near the majority of customers by any stretch.

When you say you've relocated the laser & shoot under a different file, I assume you mean completely different sections of countertop & not that you had to move to shoot other sides of the same sections, correct? For example, that kitchen where I pointed out where I put the laser. I could've just shot the whole job from between the island & the sink section, but then I wouldn't have gotten the back of the wall behind the sink, nor would I have gotten the back of the island. I would be comfortable with not having gotten the back of the island, as I didn't double check those dimensions anyway, but the back of that wall was a little important as it wasn't parallel with the front of the sink base. Also, it was currently a raised bar that they wanted to tear down & make one level with the rest of the countertop, so shooting the wall & seeing how much of an overhang to make based on how out of whack it was ended up being something that, to me, seemed valuable to know. As, if the overhang ended up being 1" on one end & 1/2" on the other, there may be a judgement call that the customer might want to make there: Make it parellel or not. The customer chose parellel.

I could've put targets on the top of the upper bar, but that wouldn't tell the story of where the wall would be once they cut it down to level w/the cabinets.

Does this still seem like overkill?

[the_dionysian_1]

The point of what I do is to make install times dramatically less. At my previous employer, most installs were about 1 hour. Bigger jobs would maybe be 2-2 1/2 hours. How long are your install times? The reason I was trained to do my job the way I do it was so that the installers could literally drop the pieces in place & they were perfect. Epoxy the seams, set the sink, silicone the top & get outta there. Installs were superfast. Also, we developed a system of installing cabinets & countertops at the same time. I've done jobs where we installed cabinets & countertops in 7 hours. They had a fully functional kitchen in 7 hours. (it was solid surface so they didn't have to wait for silicone to set)

[Mtodd62406]

I take physical measurement. I do not try to figure it to the 32 of an inch when I do they are quick measurements for reference.
As far as seam options to the customer. If they ask I tell them where I would put them and why. I also tell them I wont be sure until I lay it out on the actual slabs, so emailing them different seam options is 1 thing that is taking more time than it should.
Even being less than a year into the leica I would be upset if any of those templates took and hour to do.

If I have to relocate the laserI just save whatever I have shot,shut it down move it where it needs to be and start shooting under a different file.
I also see that you templated one that was missing a tall cabinet, I would not do that but thats just me. If everything isnt installed they are not ready for a template. if the cabinet maker ended up putting in a filler between the cabinets that would have screwed you. which I find ironic that you do not trust the laser to do its job but you trust the cabinet guy

I dont think that anyone is going to have the answers that you are looking for. I believe you are set in the way you do it.

the u shape with the raised bar. How many times did you move the laser to get that?
[

I didn't move the laser to do the raised bar. It's non-crucial dimensions because it has overhangs all the way around. So there's nothing that "pins" me.

As for the tall cabinet issue, that was discussed w/the customer. They understood the ramifications prior to me ever coming to template, so it was their choice. That's why I put it on the drawing that they approved. Legally speaking, it was done by customer orders.

I do discuss seam options at the template. This customer was being picky about it & was attempting to tell me how to layout the job on the slab. I didn't bother with arguing w/them & chose to instead present them options so they would feel good about it, as it was apparent to me that they were the type of person that wants to feel like they were in total control. That's certainly not anywhere near the majority of customers by any stretch.

When you say you've relocated the laser & shoot under a different file, I assume you mean completely different sections of countertop & not that you had to move to shoot other sides of the same sections, correct? For example, that kitchen where I pointed out where I put the laser. I could've just shot the whole job from between the island & the sink section, but then I wouldn't have gotten the back of the wall behind the sink, nor would I have gotten the back of the island. I would be comfortable with not having gotten the back of the island, as I didn't double check those dimensions anyway, but the back of that wall was a little important as it wasn't parallel with the front of the sink base. Also, it was currently a raised bar that they wanted to tear down & make one level with the rest of the countertop, so shooting the wall & seeing how much of an overhang to make based on how out of whack it was ended up being something that, to me, seemed valuable to know. As, if the overhang ended up being 1" on one end & 1/2" on the other, there may be a judgement call that the customer might want to make there: Make it parellel or not. The customer chose parellel.

I could've put targets on the top of the upper bar, but that wouldn't tell the story of where the wall would be once they cut it down to level w/the cabinets.

Does this still seem like overkill?
[

Yes that instance still seems like overkill. NO WAY I would've relocated the laser for that, set up in between the island and the sink and set targets on the counter/wall cap and just shoot those points. Aren't the homeowners taking an assumed risk by not having the wall prepared/cut down to one level before you get there? By risk I mean in the contract it says "overhangs might vary by 1/8" if old tops aren't removed first" or something along those lines.