SFA

Posted: **Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:20 pm**

OK. Bear with me on this as I'm broke as joke from my cnc purchase. And because of that, my "dimmer wheels" have been turning.

And,Yes I will be buying them (pin stops) fairly soon. Just need a few other things first.

So here is waht I'm thinking. Place 3 pods on the table "snapped" to the geometry of my piece. 2 for the wall side and 1 on one end. Locate those pods first on the table perfectly. Vac them down. And then line up my piece to the aluminum sides of the pods. Straight edge it from the side of the pod to the side of the stone. Lock it down and run it. The pod beeing that close shouldnt matter since there wont be a tool path there.

I know it wont be super accurate. But shouldnt it be within a 1/16th. Good enough if its getting splash?

Just a thought. Maybe I'm way off?

Posted: **Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:21 pm**

It will be fine.

I place pods 2 inches from the finished edge and check with a tape measure to make sure i have atleast 2 inches from each pod, pretty often.

Posted: **Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:36 am**

Do the same thing except use pieces of ES larger than the pods.

Mill the ES down. Then you have stops permanently on the corner of the table.

Then just float your piece against the ES pieces that are substituting for pinstops.

ALso, talk to Mark L. about he set up pinstops on his Northwood. It works really well
when you got the coin to buy em'

Posted: **Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:22 pm**

Don't forget, if your table is square you can always reference the edge of the tables...

Posted: **Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:37 pm**

K.O. wrote:Don't forget, if your table is square you can always reference the edge of the tables...

I thought they were all square

I never seen a round one.

Ok I know i'm not a comedian

Posted: **Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:04 pm**

Here is a rounded one Ken

Posted: **Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:09 pm**

Ken Lago wrote:
K.O. wrote:Don't forget, if your table is square you can always reference the edge of the tables...
I thought they were all square I never seen a round one.

Ok I know i'm not a comedian

Posted: **Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:42 pm**

Sounds like a PITA. I have a set you can borrow for a few weeks to a month, if needed. I hope to buy some more pods soon so I can do three pieces at a time.

You will need the blick tool thingy. I have three sets of pin stops and 10 blick pods.

So the third set never gets used. most of the time, only one set gets used, but occasionally I get to throw two small vanities up there. I think the NW height is short, so you might have to order some delrin stops.

Posted: **Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:10 pm**

First of all you don't need pin stops....they are a waste of money if you have a laser. The laser is absolutely almost as accurate if you know how to compensate for the error. but........

YOu can make pin stops out of just about anything. I you are just referencing a corner, make them out of pvc plastic sheet.....You can make a plastic L piece with a small stop that will seat against the side of the table.

If you are wanting to pin stop anywhere on the table, that is a pain unless you have the software and tools for it.

I have such a system, but have never used it and it does require a 4 axis machine. How it works is that you have a drawing of the pin stop that you snap to the part in alphacam. It can be in any position, in any rotation so long as it is touching the part. Then, when you start the program on the machine, it picks up a special tool and goes to a spot on the table and rotates the c axis to the direction the pin stop will face. Then you slip in the pin stop and attach a vacuum hose and suck it down. Hit cycle start and it goes to the next one. The you set up the pods using in the same manner.

However, I don't recommend this. I think it is a waste of time if you have a laser.

We run 2mm(less then 1/8" of overmaterial and none on non routered edges)....This has nothing to do with the machine.

Here is what you do. Mount your laser as close as possible to the center of your table. Then pick a part of the table that you never use in the corner. Get a piece of plastic or metal 1/4 to half inch higher then pod height and silicone it to the table. Then silicone a square piece of granite to the top of it. Then calibrate your milling wheel. Now mill the part as you would any other to 30mm. Then use a z wheel to make the part exactly a square. Maybe 12" square will do. Now, on every program you run, make sure to have a template that has that square in it in the same location.

Now, business as usual, but when you go to set up your parts look over at the square. Then compensate the parts you are setting up by repeating the error you see on the square. Normally, you will find the error to be off 1/16th to 1/8" off in one axis or the other. So in other words, you look over to see that your square is showing the laser to be +1/8" in the x axis. When you set your parts, repeat that error and make sure they also are 1/8" off in the x axis.

I don't have a square because I always have a part that has been cut by the machine to reference when I float my parts. But we have for 2 years run no super z and 2mm overmaterial and almost never have a run off edge with no pin stops.

I cannot believe that the CNC guys don't have this as standard practice. Maybe they never thought of it, I don't know.

Not sure how good this will work if your laser is mounted to the side of your machine. Most northwoods I have seen are overhead in the center.

I do on occasion use pin stops in the g54 corner if I am running precut parts. This is because I don't have the square I am recommending glued to my table.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:23 am**

scott m wrote:First of all you don't need pin stops....they are a waste of money if you have a laser. The laser is absolutely almost as accurate if you know how to compensate for the error. but........

YOu can make pin stops out of just about anything. I you are just referencing a corner, make them out of pvc plastic sheet.....You can make a plastic L piece with a small stop that will seat against the side of the table.

If you are wanting to pin stop anywhere on the table, that is a pain unless you have the software and tools for it.

I have such a system, but have never used it and it does require a 4 axis machine. How it works is that you have a drawing of the pin stop that you snap to the part in alphacam. It can be in any position, in any rotation so long as it is touching the part. Then, when you start the program on the machine, it picks up a special tool and goes to a spot on the table and rotates the c axis to the direction the pin stop will face. Then you slip in the pin stop and attach a vacuum hose and suck it down. Hit cycle start and it goes to the next one. The you set up the pods using in the same manner.

However, I don't recommend this. I think it is a waste of time if you have a laser.

We run 2mm(less then 1/8" of overmaterial and none on non routered edges)....This has nothing to do with the machine.

Here is what you do. Mount your laser as close as possible to the center of your table. Then pick a part of the table that you never use in the corner. Get a piece of plastic or metal 1/4 to half inch higher then pod height and silicone it to the table. Then silicone a square piece of granite to the top of it. Then calibrate your milling wheel. Now mill the part as you would any other to 30mm. Then use a z wheel to make the part exactly a square. Maybe 12" square will do. Now, on every program you run, make sure to have a template that has that square in it in the same location.

Now, business as usual, but when you go to set up your parts look over at the square. Then compensate the parts you are setting up by repeating the error you see on the square. Normally, you will find the error to be off 1/16th to 1/8" off in one axis or the other. So in other words, you look over to see that your square is showing the laser to be +1/8" in the x axis. When you set your parts, repeat that error and make sure they also are 1/8" off in the x axis.

I don't have a square because I always have a part that has been cut by the machine to reference when I float my parts. But we have for 2 years run no super z and 2mm overmaterial and almost never have a run off edge with no pin stops.

I cannot believe that the CNC guys don't have this as standard practice. Maybe they never thought of it, I don't know.

Not sure how good this will work if your laser is mounted to the side of your machine. Most northwoods I have seen are overhead in the center.

I do on occasion use pin stops in the g54 corner if I am running precut parts. This is because I don't have the square I am recommending glued to my table.

All this stuff you are talking about sounds like a pain in the ass.

You give someone a printed sheet with the pod layout and orientation of pin stops. you butt the granite up against it. bam, you are done. I don't see what the big deal is. A laser would be nice for pod placement, but for 15k, I would rather have a proliner.
You point out cncing is a smart process instead of a dumb one, like handing someone templates. Using pinstops takes 'use your judgment to compensate for the error by looking at the box in the corner' out of the equation.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:06 am**

100% agreed.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:55 am**

PIn stops are great. I love mine. Expecially when I need to rework a piece by only needing to cleanly remove say 1/32 from one edge. Chip in seam etc. Lasers don't handle this well at all. I would love to have a laser to assist in my cup setup but I would not run my machine without pin stops. too much calibrating and messing with to make sure my edge is gonna get touched. I know that there is probably no faster way to set your cups up other than a laser and for that reason I wish I had one, but for accuracy, give something physical/mechanical.

Also, on the side that I place two pin stops (typically a wall) I don't have to run any tools. I set my offset for the pin at zero and now that is one less path to machine.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:54 am**

Chris however you can get pin stops and use them it just takes the error out
of the laser on critical parts

Scott are you starting to get bored?

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:22 am**

james d wrote:Chris however you can get pin stops and use them it just takes the error out
of the laser on critical parts

Scott are you starting to get bored?

We will be getting some soon. Just thinking out loud. I'm getting ready to run a little piece and see how it works. anyway.

It will help me understand where My laser really Is anyway. Its money most of the time. But the killer part is the thickness difference. It just skews everything out of wack if you try to guess witht he laser and the stone varies 0.1 over the slab.

Thanks for the input. Hearing all the answers here has helped me understand the whole process evn more.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:28 am**

coolhandchris wrote:Sounds like a PITA. I have a set you can borrow for a few weeks to a month, if needed. I hope to buy some more pods soon so I can do three pieces at a time. You will need the blick tool thingy. I have three sets of pin stops and 10 blick pods. So the third set never gets used. most of the time, only one set gets used, but occasionally I get to throw two small vanities up there. I think the NW height is short, so you might have to order some delrin stops.

Thanks Chris. I'll just wait though.

It really not that big of a deal yet. A few minutes of FB time is really no big deal to me. I'm still blowing my hand fabbing times away, so who really cares anyway

Just did a sink in the time it took me to walk next door for some lunch. And I'm not even wet.

Who wants my hand tools?????????????????????????????

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:06 pm**

I know I am a little late on the discussion but I was referring to a square table as a table that has been machined on all sides to give you an equal and perpendicular edges all the way around...

In regards to the Pin-Stop / Laser argument, my opinion (yes I sell the product), is that a pin stop is is just as quick if not quicker than the laser. It is for sure more repeatable and accurate than the laser.

Using pin-stops also eliminates having to oversize parts because you can cut parts much closer to size. My understanding is that guys who setup pods and locate parts, over cut parts up to a .25" in order to compensate for the laser, which means more milling time and increased tooling costs as a result.

If I am off base let me know, that is my understanding though.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:28 pm**

K.O. wrote:I know I am a little late on the discussion but I was referring to a square table as a table that has been machined on all sides to give you an equal and perpendicular edges all the way around...

In regards to the Pin-Stop / Laser argument, my opinion (yes I sell the product), is that a pin stop is is just as quick if not quicker than the laser. It is for sure more repeatable and accurate than the laser.

Using pin-stops also eliminates having to oversize parts because you can cut parts much closer to size. My understanding is that guys who setup pods and locate parts, over cut parts up to a .25" in order to compensate for the laser, which means more milling time and increased tooling costs as a result.

If I am off base let me know, that is my understanding though.

.125 actually

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:44 pm**

Klint, not bad for a Sales Guy.

Blick Pin Stops & Pin Locators are also wonderful if you ever have to re-introduce a part that has been previously run.

For instance, you blow out a corner of an expensive stone and have to remove it from the table to repair. Set Blick pin stops to tell the machine exactly where the piece is located, hit cycle start and voila................perfection!

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:59 pm**

I'm slightly spoiled as well. My blick pin stops for Intermac raise and lower automatically as well. It is great!

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:00 pm**

Klint and Ron you are right on. The whole issue with the laser is not one of that it doesn't work, it is just one that doesn't represent as high of an accuracy as the pin stops. To the defense of the actual producers of the lasers they do make very precise lasers for the aerospace industry. The versions we get from Carter, SL, and LAP are the more affordable models. Using a laser and someone using the argument of time if they choose so, is kind of ridiculos. Either way the machine is stopped in order for you to do a setup. The laser positioning pods is a good idea. These surfaces never change and a 1/16th here or there doesn't hurt. The stone thickness does change skewing the laser enough for the need of oversizing and thus running all four sides of the part. The best solution is actually both. They still use the BLICK pin stops at my previous shop because they are idiot proof and they don't have lasers. AS far as accuracy, there is no need to run the super Z down walls for they do not get oversized. Just seams and profiles. Ron's shop uses the laser everyday and it works for them, but Like Ron says it is handy to have them there because of the occasional oops. Then before you remove the piece from the vacum, you can just suck 3 pin stops down and then remove your piece and then re-position when ready. Learn with what you have. The good news is actually better for the laser guys because it is so much cheaper for them to add the pin stops into their setups versus the other way around.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:19 pm**

Using pinstops takes 'use your judgment to compensate for the error by looking at the box in the corner' out of the equation.

Actually I disagree. Pin stops are super accurate only if the part that you are indexing is cut to exactly the size and shape it is supposed to be. For example, take a simple rectangular island with 2mm overmaterial as I run every day and put it on your pin stops. Cut it too short and one side will run perfect, the other will miss, cut it too long and you are taking off a crapload with your metals.

But this isn't the bad part.

Take an irregular shape such as a dogleg high bar that your saw guy miscut on of the edges from zero to 1/8" overcut(not too uncommon). If it is a long part, you might miss on the edge by 1/4" or even bite into it 1/4"......

Now the obvious answer is to grossly oversize your parts, but I though the pins were for accuracy.

Any of these setups would be caught as you can see the laser, so you can split the difference or favor one side, or go back into the office and change the program to compensate.

It is easy to try what I am talking about, just take a couple of pods in the corner, square up a piece of granite mill it to 30mm and leave it there all day while you do your setups. You will be suprised how much more accurate your laser setups will be.

Who out there is running 2mm of overmaterial, no super z and almost never missing an edge??????????? I don't think it is possible unless you have a reference part like I am describing.

James, not bored yet...Still doing granite.....4 more kitchens and a few vanities and I am done......Gotta find an rv website to pollute. I am gonna miss all you guys for sure. Plus I have found a new hobby, buying stuff on penny auction sites.....I am now getting about a 50% discount on all big box purchases plus any coupons....crazy.....

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:30 pm**

Scott,

Hook me up with the penny auction sites. I am always looking for stuff to help out our kids.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:25 am**

scott m wrote:
Using pinstops takes 'use your judgment to compensate for the error by looking at the box in the corner' out of the equation.
Actually I disagree. Pin stops are super accurate only if the part that you are indexing is cut to exactly the size and shape it is supposed to be. For example, take a simple rectangular island with 2mm overmaterial as I run every day and put it on your pin stops. Cut it too short and one side will run perfect, the other will miss, cut it too long and you are taking off a crapload with your metals.

But this isn't the bad part.

Take an irregular shape such as a dogleg high bar that your saw guy miscut on of the edges from zero to 1/8" overcut(not too uncommon). If it is a long part, you might miss on the edge by 1/4" or even bite into it 1/4"......
.

If you cut digitally, like you do. It isn't a problem. If you don't, you run more OM. A super Z hauls ass and you can hear if anything is messed up. I overcut .125 on sides that get edged. I also run the super Z down them.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:04 am**

scott m wrote:Actually I disagree. Pin stops are super accurate only if the part that you are indexing is cut to exactly the size and shape it is supposed to be.

This is ridiculous logic because if you are not cutting shite out on the saw CORRECTLY whether you have a hand router, a CNC, an edge machine or a nuclear fission router your jobs will be incorrect off the bat. If your saw or saw guy cannot cutout 36 1/8 X 75 5/8 or whatever the sizes that are given to them then you have a bigger problem than pin stops or laser

.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:19 pm**

wierd.

that was sent as a PM

The penny auction sites are a crazy genius idea. Do the math on any of the auctions and you will be blown away at what the "house" is getting for the $20 Ipad, or whatever. Crazy. Scott, you should launch a penny auction site, not bid on one

SFA

Pin stops Dimmer style?

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