SFA

Good morning everyone.

Hope those of us in the states had a great long weekends. Mine wasn't long enough. Haha

I hope This is the right section for this post.

I talked to Kris the other day about his seam phantom. He was mentioning that someone in here made a jig to use it for the European miter (terminology?). I was wondering if that person or anyone else can please show me how is it done.

As mentioned before, I'm all manual fab. And most if not all of my installs involved prefabricated pieces.

Man I've been day dreaming about the seam phantom,

I'd like to know if I can use it with some type of jig to do the miter return instead of by hand before buying the phantom.



Thank you

What he meant was some on made a jig to do miters not euro seams.You can do the straights but you will have to do the 45 by hand and be careful not to come to far on the straights or it will dig in to the 45

Kevin Padden designed and sells the Accu-Seam jigs to help with your situation.
http://accu-seam.com
These ARE NOT designed to work with the Seam Phantom, but may be what you're looking for.
Side Note: There are other threads where there have been delays in "order fulfillment". I do not know specifics. I would call and check availability before ordering.

We have a customer/Seam Phantom user in Hawaii that made a jig to hold the glide guide for doing euro miter seams. I have not seen it, but he said it works awesome. I remember that he made the jig so it held the glide guide above the stone so the center of the turbo pad hit at the top of the stone. By raising the glide guide, the turbo pad is able to grind all the way into the inside corner. With this method, the 2" cup wheel could not be used for the backgrind and so he does the backgrind by hand. Hopefully that makes sense. It probably makes more sense to those that have a Seam Phantom.

Thanks everyone for replying.

Mark, I spoke to Kevin about his Accu-Seam. The only thing I'm pondering about is the quality difference between the buffing wheel (Kevin's) and turbo buffing pad (Kris'). Kevin said his tool will yield the same result as that of the seam phantom. Did any one care enough to do a comparison yet (maybe in general buffing application between wheels similar to the ones Kevin is using and a turbo pad)?

I'm really only interested in getting the tool to do an "invisible seam", no less, 'cause ... what's the point of getting extra tool for, right?

So here's my "out-loud" thoughts on my options:

- For Accu-Seam, my other concern (other than its ability of producing a chip-free, perfect match seam) would be the extra 3-4" of materials needed compared to regular sharp 45 miter. Most of the cases (60-70%) I'm ok. But many cases where I have cabinets so "even" sizes, the materials are just perfectly sizes (prefabs are in 8', 9', and 10'. Some colors also available in 7' but not a lot).

- For Seam Phantom, I'm loving what I see in term of quality I can get out of it, chip free and what not. The only concern would be having to again come back to hand cut the miter & dressing it for a perfect match. If I use it (with a shim to bring the center of the buffing pad up to center of the stone as Kris said) on the straight cut, I would loose half of its ability (the back-grind) and still have to manual do the miter.

- What about getting both? Haha, I wish I have that kind of budget. Was thinking of just getting the Seam phantom. I already have a pair of curve seam template (similar concept with Kevin's, from one poster here who I forgot his name), than get pos-1 & pos-2 separately. But not sure which brand of wheels to buy and if they can produce chip-free or not.

I have a couple of kitchens coming up next week (that I can use as test projects) which I really want to try out. So please advice.

Thank you

A chip free edge can be made a number of ways, even without either of these tools.
The Seam Phantom makes it easy for an old dog and a newbie to yield the same high-quality results. My guess (opinion) is that the Accu-Seam leaves a little more room for "user error".

Are Euro-seams a standard (on every job) or the exception? Get the tool that you will get the most use from. In our shop we would use the Phantom (straight seams) far more than one for Euro-seams.

I just re-read your intent on mainly using prefab blanks, which would make Euro-seams more likely......................but I started a business 9 years ago with this same intent. You WILL either be cutting slabs or losing jobs very soon into it. I chose to cut slabs and business grew.........your choice may be different.

Even cutting blanks, a Seam Phantom would be the choice, imo. We do a lot of 90* corners with seams in them. We use a miter lock seam (a modified euro seam), that is a straight cut with a 45 * at the edge detail. We cut off the edge detail and 45* the detail where they meet. This allows use of the Seam Phantom. This can be done with any type of edge detail.

We Seam Phantom every seam.

Mark,

Again thanks for your input. I do offer slab cutting options. But here in the Bay Area - specially in my "territories", most remodeling projects are for flips or for mid range houses where people preferred the prefab price range. For slab cutting jobs (really really really small percentage for me), I do partner up with a water-jet & CNC equipped shop to handle the processing for me.

I know chip free can be done manually to, as for sink cutting, edge details, everything. But that's defeat the purpose of tool inventions & cnc and stuffs right? What I'd like to accomplish is to be able to still operate in manual "mode" as I am right now, (in which we sink holes by hand, rough it out against a template, cut & dress seams against some types of template - either an accu-seam or seam phantom), but still have some degree of "auto" in it. That's way, I can rest assure that even an intermediate guy can jump in and help out dressing seam, rough out the sink hole, etc...

Dan,

Can you please explain in more details how you accomplish this using the Seam Phantom? That is exactly what I'm doing, straight cut on the slap width, then 45* on the edge details. But that's where I got stuck: how to use the phantom on the small returns (at edge details)? I know I can just hand cut as we used to, dress it as we ... used to. But if we do that, then the Phantom is only good for ... 60% of the job if not 50%. Because, on the inside corner piece, even if I raise the guide up as Kris said so the center of the buff pad is at center of the slab, I would then loose its back-grind functionality.

So unless if suggested otherwise, I think if I use the phantom in my cases, I would still have to do a lot of manual, guess work operations to make it work.

Wish everyone has a great week.

Unhique wrote:Dan,

Can you please explain in more details how you accomplish this using the Seam Phantom? That is exactly what I'm doing, straight cut on the slap width, then 45* on the edge details. But that's where I got stuck: how to use the phantom on the small returns (at edge details)? I know I can just hand cut as we used to, dress it as we ... used to. But if we do that, then the Phantom is only good for ... 60% of the job if not 50%. Because, on the inside corner piece, even if I raise the guide up as Kris said so the center of the buff pad is at center of the slab, I would then loose its back-grind functionality.

So unless if suggested otherwise, I think if I use the phantom in my cases, I would still have to do a lot of manual, guess work operations to make it work.

I'm not sure how you're getting 50 - 60%. You would be able to use the Seam Phantom for more like 95 - 100%. If you choose to dress the 1" long 45 by hand then the Phantom will do 95% of the seam. You could also choose to turn the glide guide at a 45 and do it all with the Phantom. I have an experienced guy do these seams in my shop and he does the 1" 45 section by hand. He leaves that part just slightly open to ensure that the main part of the seam comes together tight.

Hopefully these pictures will help you understand how we do it. You can lay some tape down then lay a jig over the tape and cut the tape with a razor blade. Use the same jig and razor blade on the other side then dress to the tape and you'll get a perfect fit.





You can see that the Seam Phantom will dress almost all the way into the inside corner.






We do that small 45 by hand.




This is the finished pieces dry fit together. No glue to hide the seam yet. Once it's glued, that hand dressed part will almost dissapear.



This one is also just a dry fit.

Dan, is this similar to how you do it?

P.S. I hate to say it, but a router bit will not produce the same quality of a seam as the Seam Phantom...This is not my opinion, it has been proven.

Exactly as Kris posted. We do the edge detail ( about 1") is done by hand. The entire length of the seam is done with with the seam phantom. We undercut the 45* a little with the seam phantom when doing the long edges., just never to the point it will be seen when the seam is finished (breaking through the front of the edge detail.

So Kris & Dan, do you raise the straight edge up on your inside corner piece like Kris mentioned so the buff pad can dress up to the corner?

Kris, what I meant by 50-60% is that with this setup, I can only dress the straight edges of the seam, but not back grind on the inside corner piece if I raise the rail up . Maybe 60-70%.

Thanks for the pics

I don't know about the raising part. We dress the entire seam up to the edge detail, this amounts to 24.75" of a 25.5" counter top. This is clearly more than 60%, over 97% to be precise. We dress the angled edge detail by hand.

Unhique wrote:So Kris & Dan, do you raise the straight edge up on your inside corner piece like Kris mentioned so the buff pad can dress up to the corner?

Kris, what I meant by 50-60% is that with this setup, I can only dress the straight edges of the seam, but not back grind on the inside corner piece if I raise the rail up . Maybe 60-70%.

Thanks for the pics

I do it just the way you see in the pictures. It was a guy in Hawaii that said he raises the guide by using a jig to hold it up and his jig is set to hold it at the right angle so he can hit both the long side and the short 45.

My math is the same as Dan's on the % that you can dress. You can see from the pictures that the Seam Phantom is used for Almost all of the dressing.

Dan R. wrote:I don't know about the raising part. We dress the entire seam up to the edge detail, this amounts to 24.75" of a 25.5" counter top. This is clearly more than 60%, over 97% to be precise. We dress the angled edge detail by hand.

Good morning. Anyone staying at home to watch women world cup today?

Back to business: what's I meant on the percentage was the phantom's functionality, not how much it can buff. If according to the tip Kris posted about someone in Hawaii, using some sort of shim to raise the guide up so the buff pad can dress all of the longer portion of the inside corner piece (since the buff pad is round, without doing so it will leave a little bit at the top of the corner un-dressed). And, by doing so you can not use the 2" grind wheel to back grind that piece. Hence the 60-70%, loosely. Hehehe.

I'm just trying to pick everyone's brain (since you pros up here are so good at fabricating) about ways to best utilize the phantom in cases like mine before investing in one. That's all. And because, if I get one, I'd like to be able to have even a helper jumps in & uses the phantom to help dress the seam all by himself while my lead doing something else, ect.

Thanks again for all the good tips and confirmation (on the phantom usefulness) so far.

Good day

The way we currently do our miter seams, I wouldn't have a helper do it. For straight seams yes, but not the miter seams. Our miter seams are done by my lead guy. The reason we use it on miter seams is not to make it easier, but to make the seam virtually dissapear which gets us enough referrals to keep us booked solid even in a tough market. We rarely do miter seams which is why I have not made a jig and I just have my lead guy do them. If we did lots of miter seams, I would make a jig to make it easier for anyone to do them.

I think Nhi is only doing straight seams, not mitering.

Dan R. wrote:I think Nhi is only doing straight seams, not mitering.

I mis typed. When I said miter seams, I meant to say euro miter or lock miter seams. Nhi is primarily doing prefabs so the euro miter or lock miter seam is mostly what he does.

Kris Jorgensen wrote:

Dan R. wrote:I think Nhi is only doing straight seams, not mitering.

I mis typed. When I said miter seams, I meant to say euro miter or lock miter seams. Nhi is primarily doing prefabs so the euro miter or lock miter seam is mostly what he does.

Yes sir, that's what I'm dealing with.

Then you need a Seam Phantom!!! The sooner the better, all of your questions will be answered in 10 minutes after you do your first seam.

That's why I'm itching of getting it. It's just that my volume (& profit margin) is so low I'm been trying to save up for it but it's still a big investment. I know, I know, a couple of referrals away will do it good. But, but, but, hehehehe.

I've been trying to nag Kris for a deal, he's almost ... agree. I tried to call him today again but probably out of office hour. Will try to call him tomorrow (and Kris, if you read this before I call you, I'm crossing my finger to get you go "soft" on me in helping me get one set).

I have a small one this Saturday, only 3'x7' L shaped with cheap stone that I wanna try it. Not sure how fast I can get a hold of a set. Will update the status if anyone cares enough.

BTW, is any one rooting for US Women Soccer Team?

Unhique wrote:I've been trying to nag Kris for a deal, he's almost ... agree.

I think this is the longest thread on here from someone who knew from the 1st post what the outcome would be (just look at the thread title).

Consider yourself lucky that Kris doesn't charge you EXTRA for all the time he's invested in answering your questions.

Go ahead and buy one already!

I'm really thankful for the advice and everyone's generousity.

Mark, you're in water sport too? I went white water kayak once and it's really fun. Most of the time I go jetskiing and rafting. Been busy with kids (a 2.5 years old & a 7 mos) lately.

Like I mentioned before, we can't do special deals or I'll piss off our distributors. Our distributors move lots of product for us, so it's not worth the risk of making them upset by under cutting them.

Unhique wrote:Mark, you're in water sport too? I went white water kayak once and it's really fun. Most of the time I go jetskiing and rafting. Been busy with kids (a 2.5 years old & a 7 mos) lately.

Yup, I started WW Kayaking about 12 years ago. Mostly Class III & IV stuff here in the Southeast. Being upside down in a moving river with rocks hitting you in the head isn't for everyone! There is some BIG water out in Cali.....but my kids take up most of my time here too - 4 y.o. & 7 y.o. I still get to go boating about 5-6 times a year.
Happy fabbing!

Kris Jorgensen wrote:Like I mentioned before, we can't do special deals or I'll piss off our distributors. Our distributors move lots of product for us, so it's not worth the risk of making them upset by under cutting them. I do offer a $50 discount to SFA members just to say thanks for all that the SFA has done. Let me know if you're a member.

Let me jump in here. I am on my third seam phantom. I bought the 49th one he made(electric version) it wore out, so I thought about getting another. I not only bought another, I bought two. One for the shop, and one for the truck. Kris has always bent over backwards to help with whatever I need. He is always around to answer a question or to fix a problem. (he even answered while on vacation with his family)

Break down and by one! It literally pay's for itself in a few jobs.

It works so good that I call it the stone stretcher. if my slab is only 114" and I need a 118" top..... phantom it, glue it, top polish it and voila! stretched stone. I have done this over a dozen times and I have shown at least half o fthose people exactly what I did, and I have never had a complaint.

So buy one already