Comparing Template systems

[SR203]

We are currently in the process of purchasing a new digital saw and want to upgrade to digital templating as well. Anybody have any opinions on LT2d3d vs. Proliner and why one might be better than the other?

if you don't use slabsmith, are you still laying templates out by hand on the slab or is there another way if we get a saw like the sasso k600? I know something was mentioned about a camera overhead?

Any input would be appreciated.

[Dan R.]

Our saw has the ability to take a photo of the slab and then the parts (generated by a dxf) can be manipulated to any area of the slab. Once the layout is ok, hit the cycle start and it cuts the pieces.

[Alex DiPietro]

Our saw has a camera, and we next parts and program at the saw. When a customer wants to do a layout, we just mask off using our shop drawings. Our saw runs Easystone.

K600 is a program ahead of time machine I believe. I am not sure how one would nest on a k600 without slabsmith. I think that if you get a k600 you need slabsmith. Everyone with a k600 is running alphacam. Maybe you can integrate a camera into alphacam too?

Proliner. Hands down. No questions. I wish I got the proliner from day 1. I never had a LT, but a standalone Leica laser. It was great because it forced me to learn CAD, but the proliner is way more accurate. I don't care what anyone says, but it seems like everyone who starts with a laser ends up with a proliner.

[Dave.Scott]

Proliner. Hands down. No questions. I wish I got the proliner from day 1. I never had a LT, but a standalone Leica laser. It was great because it forced me to learn CAD, but the proliner is way more accurate. I don't care what anyone says, but it seems like everyone who starts with a laser ends up with a proliner.

x2

We have had an LT and a 2D3D, sold both, now have 3 Proliners.
Wish the Proliner had a remote-- Teamviewer-- diagnostic/repair ability.
Only downside besides price.

[Jonathan]

What are the prices for the newest proliner, 2d3d, etc?

[SR203]

proliner 7 = $22.5k
proliner 8 = $25k
2d3d = $16k

Pricewise it is a no brainer. From everything I have seen, the software on the 2d3d also looks more user friendly. The only downside for me is all of the people who say the accuracy just isn't there. It makes me a little nervous. I spoke to a rep from Laser Products today who assured me that in most cases where there is an error, it is usually user's fault. I want to believe it.

[SR203]

For those of you guys who started out with 1 proliner, did you just not template for a week while it was out for service?

[GuyboR]

proliner 7 = $22.5k
proliner 8 = $25k
2d3d = $16k

Pricewise it is a no brainer. From everything I have seen, the software on the 2d3d also looks more user friendly. .

How much does 1 messed up kitchen cost? Cost difference evaporates in a hurry.

Laser products does have killer software....but in my opinion, it's "fluff". We don't do ANY clean up on site. We do all our cleaning up of the files at the office on a real computer with 30+ inch monitors.

For those of you guys who started out with 1 proliner, did you just not template for a week while it was out for service?

It's 3 days when out of service for us....we pay overnight there and back and 1 day for service. We schedule around it. It is VERY EXPENSIVE TO INSURE AND SHIP THE PROLINER VIA UPS. We know that and accept that as a cost of doing business for this unit.

Disclaimer.....I use a proliner.
Testimonial....I never pull a tape out to double check measurements....That is how much we trust the Proliner. First time contractors can't believe it when I template. When it gets installed, they are amazed.

[Andy Ross]

I use lt55. I agree the accuracy error is from humans. You just have to realize you need light a dull surfaces. The proliner sounds better but i will say that the lt55 will make standard countertops just fine. When we have to get a new one, ill probably get a proliner but i have no reason to switch until my laser craps out. Plus i got it used for under $7k.

[Dan R.]

I am new to the digital world. Very small shop, Super cheapskate.
The LT software is most appealing, the Proliner accuracy is most appealing. The price difference is really negligible (as Guy stated).

I went with easy software, because we are mainly doing basic kitchens, no steps, no tub decks, no "church work". Each shop is different, with slightly different requirements & situations.

May eventually move to the Proliner.

Many shops use multiple LT Lasers. Some people have been using Lasers for 20 years. TO me that is a pretty good testimonial, in & of itself.

The quest for better has to include good enough, doesn't it?
I know we all obsess over every detail. But there are more shiny, but liney kitchens going in than ever before. At some point, there is a good enough moment in each of us, even the most particular.

[Rick George]

I used a LT55 for almost 10 years and the only mistake I ever had was a little slop in the raising and lowering of the tripod and I even figured out how to avoid that issue. Laser Products resolved that issue when they came out with the 2D3D model. I have used the Proliner as well for about a year and a half and I personally never saw an accuracy difference from one system to the other when used properly. The main difference I saw was slightly less setup time with the Proliner vs the LT. One drawback I had with the Proliner was reaching back corners of the walls as my gut would always get in the way of the line!

[Alex DiPietro]

The error of lasers occurs when the laser stretches. This happens when shooting at sharp angles. The way to try and combat this is by using small pin targets, which are tiny at the bottom but over 1/8" wide at the top. There is nothing accurate about pin targets.

I believe everyone has a different degree of acceptability when it comes to accuracy. If the jobs being measured are always against sheetrock or open lasers tend to be more useful. When tops are always abutting millwork, the accuracy of the proliner is paramount. This is not a theory. Its fact.

Other advantages are digitizing stick templates, and measuring tubs.

[SR203]

We made the decision to go with the proliner now but I have a few questions that I keep forgetting to ask the sales rep.

How do you export files? does it have built in wifi?

The rep did say that it does not include software for the computer (that is extra... of course). Do any of you that have the PL and opted to not purchase the computer software recommend getting it?

If you were purchasing a new PL would you go with the 7 or 8? Right now we don't necessarily have the need to go with the 8 but the price difference is minimal and do not want to buy another in the future.

Those of you with the PL, and slabsmith... what is your normal course of action? I imagine it would be something like:
Create quote on Countergo
Template with PL
Send DXF to Slabsmith somehow and do layout with customer
Send to Alphacam for programming?

Or would you send to alphacam before Slabsmith?

[Alex DiPietro]

Hey Jason,

You really don't need the 8 but I would get the 8 for resale purposes. As you mentioned the price difference is negligable. There are two schools of thought when it comes to editing, on site or at the office. When you come to template with my brother you will see his workflow. When I template, I only add overhangs on site, and color code everything else.

You export the files on a USB. The proliner will export 2 dxf's and a pdf. Once its out of the proliner you don't have any need for prodim. We import into draftsight and make our edits in draftsight. You can use any cad program. Its nice to use draftsight as you can use it on many computers, you will only be able to use alphacam on one computer. You could always edit in alpha cam. Once you have a clean dxf, you can either bring it into slabsmith if you need to do a layout, but if its a basic granite or homogenous quartz that doesn't require any layout you will be able to bring the file directly into alphacam. From alpha cam you will toolpath the job.

[oatesgranite]

We have owned a LT-55, a Leica 3d Disto and now a Proliner 7. We have found the Proliner to be so much faster and more accurate that we have not touched the laser in months. The LT software is very easy to use and it is used in our office for simple layout and quotes daily. We take only raw data on the Proliner at the jobsite and do all cad at the office as the onboard cad is a little slow for us.

[toddems27]

I have 6 2D3D's in our fleet and when it's time for the 7th it will be another 2D3D. For the simple fact it's easy to teach to a rookie templater. The software is very user friendly and the accuracy issues on our end have always been user error.

We had Faro arms and a Proliner in the past and felt the interface was difficult to teach. Our guys picked up the 2D3D a lot quicker.

[Drew T]

Jason,

Feel free to ask Matt Thompson to come out to see you and prove the accuracy on site and train you. You can always reach out to me directly if you want to have a conversation about your concerns.

[kkhrestsov]

we have lt55xl that just sits there collecting dust most of the time
1 Proliner 7 and 1 proliner 8 that we use everyday
we recently got lt2d3d and we use it a little more than the lt55xl
really like the use of the laser when you need to shoot long distance or there are scaffolding around (commercial projects often), but as far as regular kitchens proliners are our choice.(fast boot up, accurate)

[SbergeronMG]

Not arguing with proliner accuracy.

We get awesome result with the lt-55 (we have 3)
I don't think a system match this for normal kitchen yet.
He is literally in and out the house in less than 20 min with a fully done drawing.
Our main templator does an average of 10-12 kitchen a day.
We got another one that just fills in to free the main when we have more
Intricate project. I don't think I can match that speed with other system
But I don't know much about the proliner.

So for standard kitchen I find lt to be a good bet, if I would want to do more intricate work I would definitely consider the proliner.

[Alex DiPietro]

sounds like incredibly small, easy kitchens not trapped between anything...

I hate that "kitchens" has become a metric of production. Funny, a very large shop around here that advertises "3 day turn around" evidently was brought on to a job we were supposed to do because of time. After templating that 3 day turn around turned into 10 days.

For what its worth, everything about a proliner is faster. Even the easy ones.

[Ken Lago]

One templator doing 10 kitchens a day with lt-55. Please explain how that is possible with travel time and all.

[SbergeronMG]

Number of kitchen is never a metric. And I completely agree with you, we all do different type of work and in the end it's really hard to compare the process everyone is doing. Even sqft is not a total accurate number of the work they have to put in. He is averaging 2500 sqft a week on himself. (I've got to say that doing lot with no client or high-rise definitely sped thing up) but that's not only what he is doing.

I can send you screen shot of.our moraware but yes it is really what he is doing.

[VThartzog]

I used to be a Leica whore for a while until I kept having to do so many tub decks, shower walls, full heights and no name sink cutouts. Then I started using the proliner all the time to probe them and it's been a godsend. I have yet to have had a rogue measurement from the proliner, but I would field verify the Leica because sometimes measurements wouldn't add up from reflection or tight areas. I'd opt for proliner as there's nothing better.

We ran our thibaut cnc saw without slabsmith for about two years by still doing them by hand with the saw camera to line everything up. Operator might have to do a floating cut above the slab to double check something that was crucial for vein match line up. Now we have slabsmith and it opens up a lot more possibilities for matching.

[Rock Solid]

I have 2 laser 2D3d and when I use it stuff Fits great, but when my regular template guy uses it his stuff fits about 50% of the time it drives me nuts, I cannot figure figure out what the hell he is doing to Dick things up so much. He says he's measuring everything but I'm calling BS on it the Cnc saws and routers just don't screw things up.

Don't want to be a scrounge but anyone have a proliner they want to rent out for a few weeks to a month? I'm willing to pay I just don't want to drop 25k to realize I bought a giant paper weight.

I really think these template companies should have a half dozen models that are just rentals for prospective buyers to try them for say 2 weeks to a month for a fee, you must have a credit card with a limit to cover replacement for damage or theft. If you use it and don't like it your only out the rental fee, but if you purchase the rental fee gets applied to the new purchase. Sounds like a win for all parties, what your thoughts?

I think these guys would sell a ton more template devices if they implemented this type of program, trying one at the shows is a joke they have the easiest mock up kitchens that you could measure with a tape before you even got the device set up, I want to try it on the hard stuff we deal with on a regular basis and see if it fits our needs, just my thoughts.

[Drew T]

Chris,

We do offer a 30 day money back guarantee. A client can put down a deposit of 50%. Part of the 30 day is that Laser Products comes to train the client.