Lf on 8 hrs. shift for a cnc (profile edge only)

[alg]

thanks.

[Ken Lago]

Depend on tools, profile, machine and persons running it.

[Camzl1]

It does depend. But here is an example. This does not include tool changes. I will go worst case and best case. Worst case Ogee (8 tools) Best case Eased (7 tools). Ogee edge can be done at 12.96 linear inches per minute of finished product. Eased can be done at 16.67 linear inches per minute. This is calculated with the feedrates of Ogee to be, starting from breaker to polisher so eight tools. 60,60,250,250,50,60,60,40. Add those up and we get 830. Divide by eight and get the average of all 8 tools running. 103.75”/min average tool feedrate. Then divide that by eight tools as we physically have to run eight tools and you get 12.96 or 1.08 linear feet per minute of finished product. Then you do the same for Eased. 100,250,250,60,60,60,40. Add those up and we get average feedrate of 117.14. Then divide by seven physical tools for 16.67 inches or 1.389 linear feet. However, you must add your own super z times into the mix of individual numbers if you use that and then add your typical tool change times for each tool and add that in based on how many pieces you load on a table and how many tool changes you do. So there is thebstart for you. Hope this helps.

[dbiel]

Eric
Thanks for that insight, would it be safe to assume that in a typical shift (8 hours ) one would expect to have 4 hours of running time ,allowing for set up teardown and tooling change cycles ?
Which worst case scenario would be 1ft/min x 240 min of run time.Which should yield 240 linear feet of finished product.
Or should someone expect more or less run time ?
Have you or anyone found a reasonable conversion factor from linear feet to square feet ? Or at least that square feet yield should be greater then or equal to linear feet produced?
Thanks in advance
Bob
Ps. Im a numbers guy ,thanks for the fix !

[Camzl1]

Hey Bob.

A foot a minute is high. Remember my numbers don’t give any tool change times, no super z or fingerbit times, no account of the few seconds of z depth travel time in between pieces, and no load and unload times. In an eight hour shift and based upon my experience I have seen up to 220 square feet of finished edge, but the correlation between square and linear is not mathematical. If it were always 4 sides of finished profile edge on every piece than you could do some numbers. So I always go by linear feet of finished product which can be calculated if someone takes the time to do a time study of their own SOP and then takes that data to further optimize your times and programming abilities. By doing this you will find if the benefits of running 4-5 pieces at a time are really better for you then 2-3. If that fourth piece takes/adds and additional 10 mins to setup, load and unload, compared to running 3 pieces, then don’t load your table up with 4. Tool changes for one extra piece will never add up to ten minutes. See where I am going with that. Only you can decide this for your company once you study the whole system from programming optimized tool paths to cycle run times and load and unload.

[dbiel]

I have been trying to study this, from the moment i first believed a salesperson from an fabrication equipment manufacturer ( insert almost any name here ),that told me I should be able to expect four finished kitchens in 8 hours.Fast forward 5 years latter and we still struggle to get 4 finished kitchens in a 8 hour shift ,but off of 2 machines and still have two fabricators to finish ,the finished product.Equipment company after there 3-4 days of set up and training ( most of which was set up ) promptly leaves us hanging blaming tooling and operator ( of which they trained and tooling they provided).
This lesson has been repeated multiple times over the last 5 years with different equipment manufacturers ,different tooling companies ,for that matter different operators and managers .Most of them replaced because they were never able to live up to “ the equipment manufactures story “.
I am being told now that a large percentage of our “ issues “ finishing product is due to slabs being undersized .less then 3cm, Is this a problem you are seeing elsewhere ? Are tooling companies doing anything to combat this ? Perhaps a 28 mm closed profil tool .

[wkluender]

I am being told now that a large percentage of our “ issues “ finishing product is due to slabs being undersized .less then 3cm, Is this a problem you are seeing elsewhere ? Are tooling companies doing anything to combat this ? Perhaps a 28 mm closed profil tool .
[

This is by far the biggest issue we run into. Our standard edge since we started has been 1/8" radii (TR3) for the top and bottom edge. 33mm tall tooling just doesn't get the job done when most materials we see now are 28.5 to 30.25 mm (including mesh). Quartz is the worst in regards to thickness. It's consistent, but usually 29.5. We are looking into custom tools so pieces coming off the router can actually be finished.

[Camzl1]

Bob, I know you have ran every tool under the sun. I also know you are happy about the edges in the beginning but don’t want to stop to do the maintenance it takes to maintain that quality. I also have been to your shop and made suggestions to you to help your efficiency and those suggestions never have gotten done. I was there when you have had vacuum issues that slow you down or a piece moves on you. Your water was practically a hot tub in your holding take for the vacuum. The cooler the water the better the vacuum. When the water is so hot that it is getting ready to change states from a liquid to a gas(steam), it will lower your available vacuum. This is because you are introducing pressure to a system that is trying to create vacuum with the very same water that’s supposed to be used to create the seal. The impeller spins and creates the vacuum but the seal has to be sealed and not any positive pressure to be applied to change the overall vacuum. Hence the name liquid ring pumps. Also the fingerbits have stopped and moved pieces as they are not allowed to operate at the right RPM and feedrate. Get the basics down first then worry about speeding up. With the amount of water your intermacs put out you can run our tools fast. You just have to change the way you do things. Since you use pin locators it is best to typically run two pieces at a time unless you buy 3 locators for every piece. Sometimes pieces can share locator pins to reduce this, but these are the things you have to nail down. We call this standard operating procedure. But also the tough thing about running multiple pieces is if you have a vacuum issue and things move, then pin locator setup can be a bitch if the pins got moved also. I can’t stress enough about getting the basics dialed in each CNC operator trained on it and then the rest will take care of itself. Also, CNC tooling can be made to any size. We offer an A33r6r3 that can be ran upside down you know and then your facedown side is getting still the 3mm radius and the bottom is getting the variation. If someone wants a true 30mm then it can be ordered that way to give a true tangent radius on the part. The now tools (a33r6r3) have the drawback of the break just being more of a break not a matching radius to the top. None of our customers when we present the time to do the molds plus make them say let’s do it. They all need something right now. My first line of the comment is the now and works well on ES, but one must always make sure they maintain their calibration wheel so the thick granites do not chew up the polishers. And of course we offer the T33r5 and the T33r6.

[dbiel]

What suggestions do you have for cooling the water in the holding tanks ? We allow a steady stream of water to overflow and get replaced with cooler fresh water. I have searched posts on this site and haven’t found anything pertaining to cooling of the water, does someone have a radiator system for cooling the holding tanks ? I have been to almost every stone show and have never seen any type of cooling system.
I agree this is a problem ,I have had conversations with vaccume pump people that back it up, but no one has ever suggested a solution to this problem .This is compounded by the fact that we run our cncs two shifts ,sometimes longer
And back to original post we have to run our cncs two shifts ,because we are only getting half the production we are led to believe we should.
I have switched to different pods, i have purchased many additional stops , i have purchased and installed overhead lazer system for setting stops and pods .I have an overhead lift system for loading and unloading all of these suggestions designed to optimize the yield of the cncs . We do preform scheduled maintenance and dressing of the tools as suggested.This is not an issue of me not wanting or implementing solutions.
I am not unhappy with the quality of the product , what i am unhappy with is the inability of the “ investments “ to produce the results represented at the time of sale.

[Camzl1]

That’s awesome you are doing those things now. I for the life of me don’t understand why machine guys use closed loop cooling systems on these small vacuum pumps. Basically doing what you are doing now is all you can do, other than building your own swamp style radiator to cool them down. The key is to keep the temperature below other than warm. Luke warm and warm will work. I will pull up the charts next week for you to get you the idea of where you need to be on temps. I am on vacation this week so I will get them and stop by. If you want to get together and allow Terminator to help you maximize your yield then we can talk. Just let me know what day works best for you. The salesmen talk can be vague on the description or terminology of finished product. The goal is to put a plan of what percentage to reasonably expect off the machine that is done and out the door. You and I say out the door means simple, finished and polished and out the door.

[dbiel]

Thanks fior the input and help ( especially while on vacation ) ! Call or text when back I’ll make time.

[DavidL]

Bob,

Not sure what machine you have but if you need to cool your water down and don't want to add another "system" then increase the holding/settling tank size. By increasing the size of the tank you are introducing more volume allowing it to absorb the heat better. If you can make that increase by having a large tank that has more surface area, even better as you will allow that heat to dissipate even more than with a vertical cannister style tank. You can do this by adding the tank in as as second (or third) tank and plumbing a crossover pipe to it. My old Intermac master 45 was setup this way and was being run in the heat of Florida without overheating. "The solution to pollution is dilution", your polution in this case is heat.

[dbiel]

Thanks Dave
Sounds like a cost effective solution .I have an intermac 45 and a 33 both have hot tubs for tanks .I had a leak in the 45 s tank and I replaced it with larger tank ,it did seam to improve the suction.Would a better location for the tanks be outside or inside the shop ?
I could add an unlimited amount of water tanks if the solution could be that simple.
Thanks again for the feedback

[DavidL]

My 45 had 2 settling tanks underneath it along with the vacuum water tank. If you have room just add the second, or larger, tank there (maybe sticking out of the back of the machine) if room allows. If you plumb it outside you just have to be worried about getting water back to your vacuum pump, with an adequate supply, without over taxing the pumps' capability.

[BUFFALOGRANITE]

We've never had vacuum issues on our intermacs. It is mostly the seals on the pods. Our tanks are hot as well and we have the new machines that have the separate vacuum tanks. We never lose the vacuum because of it being hot we lose it because our seals go bad. As for production on intermacs there are ways to increase yields. Perhaps by looking at your programming first. We program pieces in the same spots and use the edge stops in the same areas. This helps with setup. Next you have to look at how much your loading your table. With the 45 the thing should be full. When we had a 33 we put all vanities and smaller pieces on it, or you program everything for the 33 and use the 45 for islands

[jbergman]

I am not sure what is practical in your shop, but I have always suggested a dual water system, fresh water, (which will be cool), for the through the spindle work, and recycled water for other work. Typically around 5-8% of water is lost through evaporation and the fresh water going through the spindle now becomes the make up for that. If the volume is too great for the tanks on your Intermacs, bleed some off to the rest of your shop. That should help with cooling . Incidentally how are you handling water shop wide? I have never liked tanks for cnc water: sludge, cooling problems such as you are experiencing, restricted access and so forth.

On a slightly different subject, any salesman/company who told you or any average shop to expect four kitchens in 8 hour on their cnc, either does know what they are talking about, or has a problem with the truth. Hell of a way to do business. My rule of thumb has always been 150' per 8 hours if running efficiently. Some of the newer tooling might increase that a bit, but that is only one part of the equasion. It's not into going to bring you into the b.s range.

One other thought - There are many areas that effect production; tooling, programming, job set up, etc, but one that gets overlooked all too often is material handling. Take a close look at how you are getting work on and off your machines.

John Bergman
Bergman-Blair Machine Corp
Prescott, AZ 86305
928-443-1100
516-381-6774 Cell