HELP PLEASE - Issues With Granite Installation

[toronto_consumer]

Hi, everyone. I am having a terrible time with the company I hired to fabricate and install the granite countertops in my new home and I wonder if I could solicit some opinions on the matter. I should mention that they do not appear to be members of the SFA. We went to their shop and picked out a slab from the selection in their warehouse. It was a Brazilian granite called "Matrix". During the consultation, the owner mentioned that this particular stone was difficult to work with and that there may be small "chips" that fly off during the fabrication that would need to be filled and polished. We accepted this and didn't think much of it.

He sent out his check measure guy, who only measured and took notes - he didn't create a template. There was a side issue which resulted in an argument with the owner over whether or not he would be willing to use our supplied sink. He was rude to me and my wife during this scuffle, but he already had our deposit and we decided to smooth things over and move forward.

They delivered our counters on Friday and they look, in our opinion, terrible. I was prepared for the possibility a few chipped edges that had to be filled with black filler, but it is much worse than that. The bottom edges of both cutouts are crooked to the eye. It's particularly bad in the bath vanity where a white sink is undermounted, as the contrast in the materials highlights the uneven lines. The places he did repair with filler have visible lines in them caused by whatever polishing/grinding tool they used.

Can anyone offer any advice? The owner of the granite company came by and looked at the work and (of course) said that it was acceptable. Please take a look at some of the pictures linked below and tell me if perhaps I'm being unreasonable? Given the material, should I really only expect this level of smoothness and evenness? Every layperson I've showed the counters to agrees that the work is horrible. We paid a 50% deposit up front ($2000 of a $4000 job), but the granite is now in our house (it hasn't been affixed to the cabinetry, the sinks have not been mounted, and the faucet holes have not been cut. Any suggestions as to what to do? We've seen samples of their work in their shop getting ready to go on the truck and they were fine.

His exact wording is the "the work that has been completed in your home is well within the tolerable and allowable industry standards". You all are the experts, and if the consensus here and amongst other local fabricators I plan to contact is that the work is acceptable, then I'll suck it up and pay the guy. But I've never in all my years seen any granite counters that looked anything like this.

They guy is being uncommunicative, standoffish and is shouting and swearing at me on the phone - stopping just shy of threatening physical violence. He wants to split with his granite and not return our deposit. I'm totally bummed out - and we've just moved into an expensive new house with two kids and don't have a kitchen sink or dishwasher - not a pleasant experience. Thanks in advance for any opinions or advice, regardless of whether or not you agree with my position.

[Scott Vicario]

Wow sorry for your bad experience with this so called fabricator...Because his work is actually way below industry standard...I would not pay him a single cent more...those sink cut outs are done by hand but still that's no excuse for poor craftsmanship...was there any seams on the job and were they acceptable...for him to be rude and standoffish is another major red flag that his company is not a quality company...did you shop around and he was the cheapest and that's why you went with him...We now have more pictures for the Hall Ashame

[toronto_consumer]

No, he wasn't the cheapest at all. He was priced competitively, but we're not "bottom line" shoppers - we understand that quality costs money. We shopped around and, ironically, fell in love with the granite that he now claims is the cause of the so-called "minor variances". We picked him due to a couple of positive recommendations on a local shopping/consumer site that has a very active forum community. They may very well have been valid, on-the-level reviews because, as I said, we did see actual work that was in his shop ready to go out the door and it looked fine to us. In retrospect, we should have stuck with the granite options our builder offered us which were somewhat "boring", but I'm sure would have turned out great.

Our position is that if he cannot deliver a suitable result using a stone that he stocks, then he shouldn't offer it to his customers. His position is to shout repeatedly "Did we put a gun to your head and force you to pick that stone?!? Answer me!! Did we put a #%@%$^ gun to your head!?!?!". But if he actually warned his customers that he cannot make anything decent out of that stone, then he would be sitting on a big pile of slabs that he wouldn't be able to offload onto suckers like me, wouldn't he?

[ageless]

Sorry for your experience. I think you should have got your money from the moment he argued with you about a sink. The job honestly looks horrible. I'm sure there are some guys in here that have hand fabricated the same material and can show pictures of what it should look like. I would not pay the guy the balance.

Being that you mentioned the stone was not affixed, you should take the other $2000.00 and apply it to pay a reputable fabricator to correct the job. Looks like they left enough overhang on the sinks to be able to grind back a little and straighten out the cutouts and polish and fill the edges. It might not be perfect but 100% better than what you have now.

[Stone Dude]

We have worked with this particular Matrix many times. It is in fact a NIGHTMARE to work with, and we have worked with the most delicate of stones. This does not however, excuse the poor craftsmanship displayed here. I am sorry you are having to deal with this.

[Mark Meriaux]

It's not the stone's fault (or yours) that the "fabricator" can't produce a quality finished product with it.

That particular material is somewhat of a pain to work with, as it requires extra time to fill/repair chips that occur during fabrication, but most quality fabricators here already know that, and usually account for this when pricing/bidding the project. A "fabricator" who stocks material should certainly be capable of working with that material.

As for resolution, I don't have much advice. It sounds like your "fabricator" is unwilling to correct his mistakes. You may have no recourse beyond legal action in attempts to recover your expenses. It may be in your best interest to have an SFA member company come to your jobsite to see if the material is even salvageable at this point. As mentioned, DO NOT give any more money to this "fabricator" unless they demonstrate a willingness and the capability to correct their mistakes.

[Dan R.]

Tool marks, crooked lines and the such have nothing at all to do with the stone itself, they are hallmarks of poor craftsmanship, imo. I would apply the balance towards a true craftsman to make the required repairs. I would not pay any further, follow your own instincts. It can certainly be salvaged, imo. The correct fill, grinding and polish can/will make all the difference in the world. Let us know how things work out.

[Mark Gamble]

I am in the Barrie area if you need any advice or options. PM me the site you were on so I can give honest advice for uneducated people.

[Boyd]

"A "fabricator" who stocks material should certainly be capable of working with that material."

That's what occurred to me. The local mechanic who works on Opels shouldn't be attempting to deal with Ferraris.

From the pictures, it's more of a cumulative thing. All the individual flaws just sort of 'add up' to an unacceptable conclusion. We're installing this material today [actually a variation that is much harder to deal with] and it doesn't look like that. If it did, it wouldn't be installed at all.

And, whining on the front end about the difficulty appears to be an attempt to lower your expectations. That's not a good starting point. Materials like these are layered and usually have a high mica content. Most are gneiss or schists, not granites. Humpty Dumpty stones. [The bane is that they're pretty and people like them]

See if you can find someone to come in and correct the issues. Whatever you have to pay them should be deducted from the original agreed upon amount. But, until then, no more payments.

Boyd, SFA

[scott m]

I avoid this material as it is not possible for me to produce a perfect product in my eyes. Yes I can do it as well as anyone else on this planet. The thing is that this is a stone and is different from most man made materials that customers buy. In the customers mind, they expect perfection, which cannot be achieved with an imperfect material. On similar materials, I have warned the customer, explained in detail, did what I think is the best job possible and they still weren't happy because of the inherent minor flaws in the project. It is impossible to achieve a perfectly smooth edge like customers and I like. I tell them, I will do it, but we are gonna have a long conversation about the expectations.

Now that being said, it would not look like that......That is horrible work and you got hacked period. However, a good fabricator can rescue you and fix it. Problem is, a lot of guys don't like to fool with other guys messed up work.

Can you please post pictures of the whole job so it can be determined if it can be uninstalled and brought back to a shop, or if it needs to be done on site.

[Antonio Almonte]

What the others had said.

I would give Mark Gamble a call.

[Anna Almonte]

The work they did for you is horrible. I would not pay them another cent. Contact an SFA member in your area to see if they would consider touching another company's work. We are a manual shop, now with that being said yes that material is hard to work with. From what i understand it has hard and soft spots so yes the fabricator would have a hard time fabbing the material. On that note from the pictures you have posted. We would not let crap like that leave our shop only to have a call back. Yes you would have fills but you should not have had uneven under mounts and edges. We are 100% customer satisfaction. You have come to the right place to get advice.

Would you be able to post more pictures of the full project that way the SFA members can give you more feedback.

[Anna Almonte]

If you don't mind me asking how did you hear about the SFA?

[toronto_consumer]

Thanks everyone for you kind words and valued opinions.

I found out about SFA through Mark Gamble, who is sort of "hosting" a long-running granite thread on a local consumer-oriented site. He's very helpful to the members of that particular site, and (ironically) he answered my questions about "Matrix" in that thread, but by then it was too late to do anything to stop the ball from rolling. This is the same site that I got the original recommendation for my "fabricator". I'm beginning to suspect these recommendations were "shills".


I am planning on taking some more photos this weekend and I will post them here to this thread when I'm done. I'll also include the photos of the mess left behind when they attempted to fix their "minor variances" on-site. The job should be relatively easy to uninstall - I'm pretty sure they only placed the slabs on the cabinetry and didn't glue them down. The whole job is in three pieces - two in the kitchen and then the vanity. He did silicone in the (incorrectly measured) backsplash in the bathroom, though.

[coolhandchris]

Thanks everyone for you kind words and valued opinions.

I found out about SFA through Mark Gamble, who is sort of "hosting" a long-running granite thread on a local consumer-oriented site. He's very helpful to the members of that particular site, and (ironically) he answered my questions about "Matrix" in that thread, but by then it was too late to do anything to stop the ball from rolling. This is the same site that I got the original recommendation for my "fabricator". I'm beginning to suspect these recommendations were "shills".


I am planning on taking some more photos this weekend and I will post them here to this thread when I'm done. I'll also include the photos of the mess left behind when they attempted to fix their "minor variances" on-site. The job should be relatively easy to uninstall - I'm pretty sure they only placed the slabs on the cabinetry and didn't glue them down. The whole job is in three pieces - two in the kitchen and then the vanity. He did silicone in the (incorrectly measured) backsplash in the bathroom, though.

The long backsplash is coming off in multiple pieces then.

Sorry you had a rough go, I hope everything works out for you.

Boyd and I had a conversation about this thread earlier today, we were both thankful that we have cnc's that are path driven and don't have to do them by hand and deal with the super soft spots. Not having a cnc is no excuse and I am not saying that is the only way to get it done on this stone, I am just saying that the cnc putting the edge on is a little more predictable. There are plenty of guys on here that can get great results on this stone by hand, I am just glad I don't have to be one.

I really like that stone, if anyone picks it out they are getting a fullbullnose.

[B.Baltzegar]

I hate working with stone like that. I am not proud of how it comes out either.

BUT

Worse than the bad craftsmanship, was the "gun to the head" line.
No way I'd pay if someone said that.

[Dustin Adams]

This stone is one of those stones that make me shiver. The only way I am happy to supply the customer with this product is if I use the Edge Mate to shape and finish all edges or the cnc. By hand it is a menace at the best of times. Virtually impossible to keep the edge from ripple due to the soft spots.
I would contact Mark and have him help you from there, then let everyone you know the same thing!

Good luck and sorry to hear about your poor experience.

[t-mobile]

Do not hand this guy another cent! Use the money to try and salvage what you have. Maybe it can be uninstalled and the edges and sink cuouts can be shaved down and repolished.


That caulk job looks like a 3 year old did it, and the sinks look like they were chiseled out by hand.


I am truly sorry for your problems! This is exactly the kind of work that gives us real fabricators issues! Very sad!


Please report back to us and let us know more!

[Mike Stites]

I agree with the rest. The stone is a pain but looks great if done right. Call Mark and see what he can do until then do not give the other guy a dime. Maybe post on line the way he handled the problem. I would never think of treating a customer like that.

[PT]

I was just looking for some granite info when I came across your post. I read with great interest the comments from the ‘experts’ and looked at the pictures as well. I am neither the consumer nor an expert, I believe there is always two sides to a story which doesn’t come out in your post so I put in my two-bits to highlight few thoughts that arose in my mind:
It looks as if the job is not completed; there are pictures of the counters with and without the sink, how come nobody noticed that?
You say that the counters are not affixed and the sinks mounted, so who put those sinks under the counters that we see in the pictures, are the ‘experts’ looking at propped counters or sinks to say the job looks ‘horrible’?
You say it is a ‘company’, then it is easier to work out solutions with companies rather than dealing with ‘one-man fabricators’, did you try to work out a solution with the company? Did the company offer to rectify the deficiencies? Everybody on this thread ‘agrees’ that it can be salvaged, obviously the fabricator would know that and would do it too because you know word gets around and it can affect their business. Probably you did not want them to rectify it, for whatever reasons you may have.
Definitely the fabricator wouldn’t be in this business if they didn’t know the job or the stone. You admit that you were informed about the ‘stone’ and you have seen their work which looked fine, you have had two local recommendations on their work, everybody on this thread ‘agrees’ that it is a difficult stone to work with, everything cannot be ‘shills’!!!! Maybe..........you don’t like the stone anymore and want to get the company to provide another stone without you having to pay for it.
Finally, pictures can be deceptive...................personally I feel the kitchen sink looks ‘horrible’ looks right out of the garbage bin, did the fabricator provide the sink with the job?
The above is purely my opinion with no bias or prejudice against anyone, just sharing my view on this case as we all know there is more than one side to any story. Would be interesting to know the whole story..........

[ash20ash]

We are here as an organization of fabricators willing to help others with whatever it may be regarding stone and countertops. We are not hear to judge or decide what was said between the two parties. Only to help someone with an issue they need help with.
Given that you are neither a "expert or consumer", why not just leave it alone. Whats your "beef" with this?

Good observations. But your arguments are the same as "hearing both sides".

Please limit your posts to helping others. Not stirring the crap.

[Dustin Adams]

There is always 2 sides to any story, for sure no doubt.
However, this story happens to be on the internet and the photo's, and information are provided from the person who has had a problem and wants help on what to do with the situation.
Now from that story we are asked what our thoughts are, we replied with from what I see as something I would never leave my shop with to install in any of my customers houses, let alone try and sell off as as good as it gets and this is not my problem.
I know this can get into a he said she said game but the pictures, be it they are of the job or not, suck! That is horrible fabrication and it should never have left the shop in the first place, you cannot defend that.

[steven nenzel]

I'm very suspicious of the post by PT. Dude, in case you have not noticed, the people responding to the post are fabricators who own businesses who are well aware that there are 2 sides. Better than you, we know the stone, we know the issues and we know what is and is not acceptable. That company did not bring that stone to the customer's home to finish fabricating. They were trying to pass off hack work as being acceptable using the excuse that the stone is the problem.

PT are you the owner of said company?

[Stone Dude]

I was just looking for some granite info when I came across your post. I read with great interest the comments from the ‘experts’ and looked at the pictures as well. I am neither the consumer nor an expert, I believe there is always two sides to a story which doesn’t come out in your post so I put in my two-bits to highlight few thoughts that arose in my mind:
It looks as if the job is not completed; there are pictures of the counters with and without the sink, how come nobody noticed that?
You say that the counters are not affixed and the sinks mounted, so who put those sinks under the counters that we see in the pictures, are the ‘experts’ looking at propped counters or sinks to say the job looks ‘horrible’?
You say it is a ‘company’, then it is easier to work out solutions with companies rather than dealing with ‘one-man fabricators’, did you try to work out a solution with the company? Did the company offer to rectify the deficiencies? Everybody on this thread ‘agrees’ that it can be salvaged, obviously the fabricator would know that and would do it too because you know word gets around and it can affect their business. Probably you did not want them to rectify it, for whatever reasons you may have.
Definitely the fabricator wouldn’t be in this business if they didn’t know the job or the stone. You admit that you were informed about the ‘stone’ and you have seen their work which looked fine, you have had two local recommendations on their work, everybody on this thread ‘agrees’ that it is a difficult stone to work with, everything cannot be ‘shills’!!!! Maybe..........you don’t like the stone anymore and want to get the company to provide another stone without you having to pay for it.
Finally, pictures can be deceptive...................personally I feel the kitchen sink looks ‘horrible’ looks right out of the garbage bin, did the fabricator provide the sink with the job?
The above is purely my opinion with no bias or prejudice against anyone, just sharing my view on this case as we all know there is more than one side to any story. Would be interesting to know the whole story..........

You're not very sneaky

it doesnt matter at this point, what either side of the story is. The work that was actually installed is horrible.

[politefab]

WOW!! i looked at the pics and went straight to my post so if i repeat any thing that has been said i am sorry..

That stone is a tuff stone to work with but what i see in the pics is horrible. it sounds like you are not going to get any where with that guy if i were you i would hire a pro to come in and fix that mess. than send him the bill i am sure he wont pay it but if you find a qualified person to do the repairs you can include pics of the before and after with the bill. i am sorry about your troubles we are not all like that. don't take your experience and lump us all in the same category