What's your opinion?

[Stoneman25]

Ok guys, I'm a newbie here and am looking forward to getting to know many of you. I am in the process of lining up equipment for our new shop we will be moving into by September. We will be going from a manual shop to digital. We have been manual for 10 years so this will be quite the journey but one we must embrace to continue our growth and success. I have done tons of research and would love to get some opinions on equipment we are looking at. Here it goes. Some of your opinions from experience may help us in our final decisions.

1.) digital templating. Proliner, LT -55, or ELaser

2.) water treatment. Bekart or Water Treatment Technologies.

3.) rotary compressor brands. Chicago Pneumatic, Quincy, World Air or Compressor World Brands.

4.) We are looking very hard at the "Fabcenter" machines by Northwood, Park Industries and Breton. I know they are all very good machines but what do you like about one over the other?

Any other comments are very welcome. Ideas, suggestions ect.
Any other input is Welcome!! Other equipment or things to consider when setting up a new digital shop.

[Curtis R. Marburger]

We have Proliner , if you are looking at used digital equipment to save money , you will find used LT55 a lot faster than a proliner. I like the Proliner , I would recommend a small laptop with separate CAD program to edit drawings onsite.
proliner also has a yellow model now also , thats all you would need for countertops

if you are looking to ease into digital templating and cut vynal templates , dont mess around get the Allen CAD software and their template cutter . Allen CAD has a Tilling feature that saves a lot of time and vynal

We hooked up with local Air Compressor company and they got us a good deal on a used compressor. We have Gardner Denver right around corner from us. Up there in the Hills of PA i would look were the nearest compressor company is and see which brands they service.
a rotary screw compressor needs fresh oil and filters once a year , we change ours every year in spring before summer heat

[Todd Luster]

First of all welcome Jon. You got a lot of reading to do!

If you were to do a search on these topics individually you will find many threads on all of these subjects and save many peeps reposting the same. You can add questions to each thread after reading it at that time if you want to know more.

Ok guys, I'm a newbie here and am looking forward to getting to know many of you. I am in the process of lining up equipment for our new shop we will be moving into by September. We will be going from a manual shop to digital. We have been manual for 10 years so this will be quite the journey but one we must embrace to continue our growth and success. I have done tons of research and would love to get some opinions on equipment we are looking at. Here it goes. Some of your opinions from experience may help us in our final decisions.

1.) digital templating. Proliner, LT -55, or ELaser
I own all 3 and believe they are all great devices. A lot of it simply depends on what type of work you perform. I keep saying I'm gonna sell one or the other, but have yet to have followed thru.
2.) water treatment. Bekart or Water Treatment Technologies.
We built our own recirculation system that works great based off of several differnet people heres incite, works great for what we do.
3.) rotary compressor brands. Chicago Pneumatic, Quincy, World Air or Compressor World Brands.
I would recommend you checking with what is local to your area for service with a good screw compressor, then buy a new or used of that brand. They are expensive, but necessary little machines that require proper maintainence which is fairly inexpensive to have done. I know first hand when they are down, you are really in a jam.
We have an IR 15hp screw we bought new locally 5-6 years ago, been great.

4.) We are looking very hard at the "Fabcenter" machines by Northwood, Park Industries and Breton. I know they are all very good machines but what do you like about one over the other?
They all again definitely have their strengths depending on what it is you are looking to do and are great companies.
I own a Northwood FabCenter(almost 2 years now) with shuttle table and mitring head. When we started looking, we were looking for the one machine that would best do it all. Looking again(and I jave seen a lot now), I beleive if I were to purchase another fabcenter type setup for a small shop that would best do it all, I'd still likely have to go Northwood.
Any other comments are very welcome. Ideas, suggestions ect.
Any other input is Welcome!! Other equipment or things to consider when setting up a new digital shop.

[GuyboR]

Jon,

First things first. Please change your signature in your profile. You will not get any quality responses having a "Let's go PSU" in there....except from Okie fabricators that don't know any better.

Todd answered pretty well on all accounts. But I'll add my 2 cents.

Templating...we own a Proliner and love it. Quick and very accurate. If I had nothing, I'd put the ELaser in there for serious consideration from the little I've seen on it.

Water Treatment...we have our own system like Todd describes. It works for us. Search water and my username and you will find posts with pictures.

Compressor...screw compressor is the way to go. We bought an IR locally b/c of the service. Our piston one went out on a Friday afternoon. Our previous supplier (not IR) blew us off. The salesman from IR brought over a screw compressor and hooked it up at 7:00 Friday evening so that we could work Saturday and be going first thing Monday. Never talked money or anything. Said we will get it figured out when we were settled back in. We bought one from him based on that type of service. Not the cheapest unit, but worth the small % upcharge.

Machines...depends on what type of work you do. If most things are straight run, a line machine may be best. If you only plan on doing 1-2 kitchens max per day, fabcenter may be best. If you want to do more, then a cnc w/ a cnc saw or waterjet/saw combo would be the way to look.

Do some searching to find additional posts on all of these subjects to help out also.

Hope that helps.

PS...even though we've had some less then stellar years, I'm still a Hawkeye fan.

[Curtis R. Marburger]

yea , you defiantly want to be on a first name basis with your local air compressor sales and service
you also want to know who's who , with air compressor rentals , i can have a portable air compressor here within 2 hours during business hours , got a tap line in our air system ready to go

[ash20ash]

Check out Eaton for compressors. I have had great luck and service out of mine. And they were considerably cheaper too.

Homemade water system here with no complaints at all and money left in the bank too.

LT here, but never used anything else. Great tool and even better customer support. Soooo simple, my kids could run it.

Everybody previous posts are all great responses.

And always consider used machines over new. There are always great deals out there. Just need patience.



And the most important thing with any tooling question...................... Call Eric Pate and do what he says. He will not steer you wrong and will help in more ways than imaginable.

[jbergman]

Hi Jon,

First let me say that I sell machinery and have done so for over 30 years, although I try to be as straight as possible. That's the mandatory disclaimer.

Please evaluate your water requirements carefully. Most "fab center" types of machines use about 15 gallons per minute, and of that perhaps 5 gallons should be filtered to 5 microns or less. An average bridge saw uses 10-15 gallons per minute and a hand polisher uses one. Heavy duty water usage starts with line polishers. In many cases you do not need a water recycling system at all. A collection pool with a submersible pump works just fine. Water evaporates between 5-10% depending upon temperature, etc, so you can use city water to make up for the loss. Run that through the CNC spindle. We do represent Fraccarolli and Balzan and they are the largest builders of water systems for stone in the world, but in your case that would be way over kill. I like the KISS principle.

Now for Fab Centers. One of the firms that I work with is Omag. They have made a fab center type of machine for over 10 years. Cost is under $200,000. I know, I helped design it. (Incidentally we just sold a mid west company their 7th Omag, which is a 60" blade 5 axis CNC.) However more and more firms are moving to CNC saws. The cost for a GMM Brio with a motorized tilting head is far, far less than any fab center and it will process better than a slab an hour. In many cases a lot more. You can see a discussion about the Brio in the Sponsors Room under GMM. Please take a look.

Sorry for the commercial, but maybe I can save you some money and aggravation .

John Bergman
Bergman-Blair Machine Corp
11895 North Lonely Trail
Prescott, AZ 86305
928-443-110516-381-6774 Cell
Prescott, AZ

[clhilde]

Check out Eaton nothing but problems here for compressors. I have had great luck and service out of mine. And they were considerably cheaper too.

Homemade water system here with no complaints at all and money left in the bank too.

LT here, but never used anything else. Great tool and even better customer support. Soooo simple, my kids could run it.

Everybody previous posts are all great responses.

And always consider used machines over new. There are always great deals out there. Just need patience.



And the most important thing with any tooling question...................... Call Eric Pate and do what he says. He will not steer you wrong and will help in more ways than imaginable.

[Curtis R. Marburger]

yea , i would stay away from Eaton Compressors , China Junk , you have to pry it out of them that Eaton compressors are China made ,
you can get a good used USA compressor for less , and much better built

we got a used 15 hp Gardner Denver and a 100 CFM air dryer for 1,500 bucks , changed out the electric motor for around a 1,200.
been running like a clock for passed 5- 6 years

another reason you want a local air compressor company , is there are "heaters" they are called in the electric panel , they should be checked yearly by someone who knows what they are looking for

[Scott Kirkland]

OK, I told myself when I became the moderator for Our room that I would stay out of these conversations. But, I have to throw this out there. Check on cost of maintenance, training. Support - All in house and at your shop when needed. Heck, You can take the LT for a test drive! And we are so confident that it will work for you that we will give YOU a 60 day test drive. Get in touch with me and we can discuss any questions.
Like you and a lot of others out there I was in your shoes but I didn't have the advantage that you have by having a GREAT group of people that are willing to share their knowledge & wisdom. Glean all you can from them and you will be stacking the deck in your favor!!!


Scott / Laser Products
970-901-9459

[Stoneman25]

Thanks guys for all the information.
I am torn between the proliner and lt-55. Ithink we may go with lt-55 because of cost. Seems both units will achieve what we are after.

I will be contacting a local company tomorrow regarding rotary compressors. We'll see what they got.

These damn water filtration system are so freakin expensive I wish I wasn't so hesitant to look into doing it ourselves. But the fact that we will have some very expensive equipment with specific requirements makes me want to go with a professional company. I really don't want to screw things up.

What we wanted from the Fabcenter is the ability to fabricate 2 above average sq. ft. Jobs per day. Seems this is on the max output of one of the machines but with the Northwood shuttle table should be no problem We are not a volume shop but we do have some large contractor accounts that build cookie cutter kitchens. We can pursue other accounts in the area that may justify the cost of a Cnc and CNC water jet . I am going to take a look at that. I'll talk with Robbie again at Northwood and get some pricing.

Oh, by the way Guy at least you are not a OSU or Michigan fan I respect the Hawkeyes more than most other teams and you have really really brought it to us in the years past.

Thanks again for all the info guys and keep it coming. Right know I'm like a stinky sponge for stone machinery.

[Ken Lago]

I would strongly encourage you to visit a shop with a fabcenter and see for your self what it actually do in and in what time frame. Numbers given to you might not apply to your situation and expectancy.
I'm a NW fabcenter owner so I know a wee bit about it.

[ash20ash]

China Made? I'm fine with it cause it runs like a champ. Guess Alpha tools are not good cuz there made in China too?

Whats not made in China

All i can say is that it runs awsome and their customer service has been as good or better than any company I have ever worked with. FWIW

But like always. Just read all that is said and apply it to your setup. no 2 shops are the same

EATON S ROCKS

[Qualey Granite]

We have an Atlas Copco rotary and will soon be adding another Quincy VSD (Atlas has over 20000 trouble free hours, will be back up). Get a dryer and do not oversize the compressor; you will lose efficiency.

We started with a Proliner 3d and love it. They are very expensive and have to shipped out for period maintenance. We just purchased our second LT55 and the field crew prefer them for their portability and ease of use. They are less than half the cost of a new Proliner.

I don't see anyway you'll get 2 75sf kitchens finished off a Fabcenter in an 8hr shift. 2 shifts, sure. I think these machines are fine of you commit to a growth plan, but I personally don't understand the value of this concept. How do you rip down backsplash, etc? When you need service you have no backup. Again, many here are successfully using them, but if I were you I'd do as Ken says and visit several shops and watch their capacity.


Matt

[clhilde]

I don't see anyway you'll get 2 75sf kitchens finished off a Fabcenter in an 8hr shift. 2 shifts, sure. I think these machines are fine of you commit to a growth plan, but I personally don't understand the value of this concept.

Matt

They will if you spend a day and a half just cutting and run the pieces the rest of the week.But you will be limited to that volume.If you want to plan for future growth while considering this option also consider you can have 2 machines for the same price ie bridge saw and plain cnc. One manual bridge saw will efficiently produce enough to keep 2 cnc's busy with a good cut man

[Dan R.]

.......with agood cut man. If you have a cnc router it is crazy not have a cnc saw. The programming is free( you don't for your router). This would alleviate some decision making on the shop floor... Think vein match. Do you want your saw guy to be the final say in that? Probably not. Anything over 120 ft / shift is ambitious ,IMO on a FabCenter. I suggest to buy for your current needs as the basis with an eye toward growth. I would not suggest to machine up and then try to figure out how to pay for it. FabCenter may or may not suit your requirements.

[jbergman]

I think that you are getting some accurate production figures for Fab Centers. I normally tell prospective customers not to expect more than 150 square feet per 8 hours on a CNC with everything running fine and a relatively simple edge. The actual production is usually less.

Dan R is correct - consider some type of vein matching.

I have had good luck with Atlas Copco compressors. They are used world wide in stone quarries which are a most difficult environment.

John Bergman

[Ken Lago]

I can take two jobs with the same square footage and one will take much longer to cut than the other. Square foot as a way to describe a job means little, its how many lf that you need cutting, if you need to stop and move pieces to avoid over cutting and if its a tight layout it take much longer programming. The cnc part depends on how many pieces you run at a time, the different edges, if you polish or just do the metals and how well your tools are dressed. I assure you every cnc shop will give you different numbers as far as production output regardless of machine brand.

[clhilde]

It is also going to depend on how much custom work you are going to do on the machine.

Things like stubbing the bottom all around and running the z wheel to scribe a wall so on and so on.

It all takes time away from production.

[Stoneman25]

Very good point Dan R. The versatility of having a Cnc saw and a plain Cnc makes a lot of sense. Combine this with vein matching software you would have a pretty sweet setup. I could see that you would have more growth potential with a setup like this. We do have a manual bridge saw that we plan on keeping for use of remnant cutting and smaller projects. It will also act as a backup in case something goes down. Good stuff guys!! Keep it coming!

[Antonio Almonte]

First off, welcome to the SFA.

I would strongly encourage you to visit shops with the type of equipment you are looking at. Great advice.

You also forgot one other fabcenter type machines and that is the CMS Unimax. I own one and it is a great fit for our shop. You are welcome to come up here to see the machine. The type of work you do will determine the best machine for you. Straight runs and galley kitchens type of work vs custom layouts with arcs etc. I only want to do about 2 projects a day with minimal employees so the fabcenter type of machines made the most sense to me. With the Unimax, this is definitely doable(we are doing it right now) as it takes on average 1 1/2 hours to process a slab to final polishing. This is with 2 people in the shop. It is a true 5 axis cnc and cnc saw with a 40hp spindle so if it is just straight cutting, no problem. Also, with the Unimax, it is compatable with slabsmith and is touchless. Slab on, finished parts off. Matt made a great comment though regarding a one machine solution and that is if there is a problem with the machine, there is no back up. If you want to do more than two projects a day, you could add more shifts. If you want alot of production, I would go with a cnc saw and cnc router. There is more but I type really slow (one finger typer) so if you want to give me a call, I would be happy to talk to you. Also, do a search on here in the CMS room.

To template, we use the proliner 5.7 and am very happy with it. Accurate and fast.

We have a 25 hp rotary screw sullair compressor. We bought it used but has been great. Probably has 10-20 years more life on it.

[Ger Vanderbas]

For anyone who should care my philosophy is this...

Tons of options.

You can go with many combinations of machines or combination machines to get things done.

Analyse the work and TOTAL PROCESSING TIME. Just because you can cut simultaneously while machining other jobs does not mean the cycle time is shorter, it means the throughput is.

Movement of material has risks and time involved.

My best advice to a fabricator is to best understand the cost of production, then try to make the most financially efficient manufacturing system considering both operational, sales, and labor.

Financial efficiency is more than cost of machine, it's cost of ENTIRE operation, not just machining time, and consumables.

The digital process should always start with an accurate accounting of the current throughput capabilities and cost of operation and profitability. Then make an effort to determine the real increased throughput. (Should always mean not just what "pieces" I can make. What projects can I deliver and be paid is the correct analyses. And at what comparable cost.

How do I do it all making the least mistakes, having throughput at the desired level and room for growth, and what system allows me the best possibility to spend my time in sales or whatever activities that allow me to build my business,monitor quality, satisfy customers.

We all have our favorites. You might guess mine, but if I've learned nothing else from my experience in this industry it is that each shop with different skills, expertise, personnel, and desired direction for their company equals a totally different ideal solution. I humbly suggest to start with what makes the most sense to you and what you feel is the most comfortable system, get behind it, and you will succeed with the correct chemistry with the right provider.
The basic element being, the state of your shop, and your vision for it.

Every great business starts with a vision. What's yours?

[GuyboR]