Hello All

[Nick]

Working with my Dad we've actually installed small granite countertops for bathroom vanities but never did any seams.........What I could never understand is, if a granite guy is using the laser templator, why are they off so often? Why is it not a perfect fit? I'd say 10% of the time there are issues with the finished product.

I will skip the sarcasm on this one. If you have not wasted any of your own money yet on this you would be best to run. Run fast and drop this whole idea of "finding" a service market in your very large city with likely over a hundred fabricators already. Your whole attitude, while positive and energetic which is great, is blindingly oblivious to what is truly involved in this business. I am not trying to be a buzz kill, but seriously give you good advice if you like money. someone who loves you needs to beat this idea out of you so you can start thinking clearly about another better scheme.


Andy, I am not sure that the simple answer is "employees", you of all people having only one employee should know that there are many chances from template to install for something to be off. In a shop setup like yours guaranteed you make the most mistakes in general and not your guy. I know my shop is setup where basically any major mistakes have to be my fault. It could be anything from templating to CNC programming to who knows what.

[graniteman]

"If you have not wasted any of your own money yet on this you would be best to run. Run fast and drop this whole idea of "finding" a service market in your very large city with likely over a hundred fabricators already. Your whole attitude, while positive and energetic which is great, is blindingly oblivious to what is truly involved in this business. I am not trying to be a buzz kill, but seriously give you good advice if you like money. someone who loves you needs to beat this idea out of you so you can start thinking clearly about another better scheme."

X2

[Dan R.]

x III

[Todd Luster]

x IV

[clhilde]

v


Hot dog cart
automatic car wash
laundry mat
vending route

These all sound better than a granite biz but Im in it for the fame

[DavidL]

These all sound better than a granite biz but Im in it for the fame

Chris' Almost Famous Granite Yard, Come One Come All!!!!

[Andy Ross]

Nick-

I had 2 employees and they, by far, made the majority of mistakes. Everything from cutting the wrong sink because they didn't read the board to simply polishing like crap. I would blame myself for poor training or something and I realized I needed to put more time into one guy until he could think like me and got rid of one. I do make mistakes, don't get me wrong. I could really use that third guy right now but I know whats gonna happen if I try to pick another one up. I need to learn how to train an manage before I can grow.

Also, I've run crews of guys on construction projects before I got into granite. They make mistakes...a lot.

[Nick]

I am purposely in the position to make the most expensive mistakes so I just assumed most small companies were structured similarly. Keep in mind I count estimation/bidding, material purchasing etc. as mistakes. It is also easy for me by nature to step outside myself and judge what I have done rather harshly without hurting my own feelings. So I am recognize where I could have saved/made more and so on. So while other than programming the CNC and templating, even though I really can't mess up a top or fabricate it wrong or break it on an install like the guys can, I can make or break tens of thousands of dollars a year based on how I buy material, tooling, bidding jobs properly and so on. I count every time I leave money on the table in regards to those areas as a mistake even though they would go unnoticed if not scrutinized by the only person an owner has to answer to, themselves.

[Andy Ross]

Truth

[Monetcristo]

I will let you know how it goes. I don't get involved with 'schemes'. Not my style.

I will skip the sarcasm on this one. If you have not wasted any of your own money yet on this you would be best to run. Run fast and drop this whole idea of "finding" a service market in your very large city with likely over a hundred fabricators already. Your whole attitude, while positive and energetic which is great, is blindingly oblivious to what is truly involved in this business. I am not trying to be a buzz kill, but seriously give you good advice if you like money. someone who loves you needs to beat this idea out of you so you can start thinking clearly about another better scheme.


Andy, I am not sure that the simple answer is "employees", you of all people having only one employee should know that there are many chances from template to install for something to be off. In a shop setup like yours guaranteed you make the most mistakes in general and not your guy. I know my shop is setup where basically any major mistakes have to be my fault. It could be anything from templating to CNC programming to who knows what.

[Nick]

Well I can tell you after having a granite business for a while a scheme sounds pretty good

[Monetcristo]

x IV

I know it's a bulletin board and all. But you being on the SFA Board of Directors, I think this is unbecoming of the position.

I think this shows a total disregard for the spirit of the SFA and what's written in the SFA/Site Rules tab at the top of the page.

[Andy Ross]

Well I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you were new and all but now I've reached my threshold. I am not on the board of anything so you can stick that up your tightwad a$$. The board is volunteer run and they do a fantastic job. I have received help from many of them, probably all of them over the last 6 months of my membership. If you sound like a jacka$$, they let you know. You sound like a jacka$$. They have been in this business for many years, you have been in it......0. Which means you don't know crap about anything and will only take from this site for awhile before you can give to it. Pull your head out of your a$$ and try to show some respect. Again, this is completely VOLUNTEER run. Just guys (and girls) from other shops who VOLUNTEER their time to help make this industry better. They are already doing well in this industry and you are getting their knowledge.....for REALLY cheap. I recommend you shut your mouth for about 6 months and take in what you can read. Then maybe ask a question with some humility and respect. Cause guess what, you don't have anyone's respect right now. No one is obligated to answer your questions (which I don't recall you having anything except "suggestions" (bitching)) What is you problem? Be respectful and gain YEARS worth of knowledge from the members and the board here. I don't get your angle, you just come across as a HUGE prick.

[Nick]

Andy beat me to it, but since I wrote it I will post it

Dan, since when is acknowledging rock solid and truthful advice something unbecoming of a board member? You are about to get your ass handed to you because you want to get involved with a HEAVY overhead industry that requires a steep learning curve, and yields dollars that are earned blood sweat and tears, because you had a bad experience with 7 granite companies or whatever and you don't accept realistic advice not to? Being a betting man, I see statements like that and look at the common denominator more likely being the issue after about company 3 or 4. Perhaps if you were a tile guy making the transition or had some kind of anything that would imply what you were doing at least made sense (smart would still be debatable) you wouldn't hear "run for the hills", but you are getting good advice to not do this and if you don't like it then why are you here? Clearly you know everything already.

Perhaps you come on here only to take what is useful for you and then lecture board members for being likely right about something about how to post? Todd has invested so much time to the SFA it isn't funny. He attends many workshops and trade shows and is always there for help when you need him. He has forgotten more than you will learn in your first 5 years in this business if you even make it that far, and you have the audacity to come on here and tell him agreeing with good advice is unbecoming after contributing nothing to this forum, or this group and not even being open minded enough to at least acknowledge another perspective? No one said you cant do it, just that it is probably smart not to based on a myriad of things you have no clue about and will learn expensively as you go.

Anyone who signs up for a group, looking to benefit themselves(which is fine to start) and within 3 days of this is telling a board member of the group he is asking for help how to conduct themselves, is clearly someone who knows how to succeed. I would disregard the opinions that it may not be the best idea because you already know what is best.

[Monetcristo]

Well I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you were new and all but now I've reached my threshold. I am not on the board of anything so you can stick that up your tightwad a$$. The board is volunteer run and they do a fantastic job. I have received help from many of them, probably all of them over the last 6 months of my membership. If you sound like a jacka$$, they let you know. You sound like a jacka$$. They have been in this business for many years, you have been in it......0. Which means you don't know crap about anything and will only take from this site for awhile before you can give to it. Pull your head out of your a$$ and try to show some respect. Again, this is completely VOLUNTEER run. Just guys (and girls) from other shops who VOLUNTEER their time to help make this industry better. They are already doing well in this industry and you are getting their knowledge.....for REALLY cheap. I recommend you shut your mouth for about 6 months and take in what you can read. Then maybe ask a question with some humility and respect. Cause guess what, you don't have anyone's respect right now. No one is obligated to answer your questions (which I don't recall you having anything except "suggestions" (bitching)) What is you problem? Be respectful and gain YEARS worth of knowledge from the members and the board here. I don't get your angle, you just come across as a HUGE prick.

I agree the board does a fantastic job. If I could rate it, I would give it 95 out of 100.

The problem is people like you and others who feel that just because you are sitting behind a keyboard you can ignore basic decency. You feel that you can be as rude and obnoxious as you want. In your world, everyone has to 'shut up' and listen. Your thinking is so twisted that you interpret postings to a suggestion section of a website as 'bitching'. Take your own advice. This is a sign that you have a problem.

[Monetcristo]

Andy beat me to it, but since I wrote it I will post it

Dan, since when is acknowledging rock solid and truthful advice something unbecoming of a board member? You are about to get your ass handed to you because you want to get involved with a HEAVY overhead industry that requires a steep learning curve, and yields dollars that are earned blood sweat and tears, because you had a bad experience with 7 granite companies or whatever and you don't accept realistic advice not to? Being a betting man, I see statements like that and look at the common denominator more likely being the issue after about company 3 or 4. Perhaps if you were a tile guy making the transition or had some kind of anything that would imply what you were doing at least made sense (smart would still be debatable) you wouldn't hear "run for the hills", but you are getting good advice to not do this and if you don't like it then why are you here? Clearly you know everything already.

Perhaps you come on here only to take what is useful for you and then lecture board members for being likely right about something about how to post? Todd has invested so much time to the SFA it isn't funny. He attends many workshops and trade shows and is always there for help when you need him. He has forgotten more than you will learn in your first 5 years in this business if you even make it that far, and you have the audacity to come on here and tell him agreeing with good advice is unbecoming after contributing nothing to this forum, or this group and not even being open minded enough to at least acknowledge another perspective? No one said you cant do it, just that it is probably smart not to based on a myriad of things you have no clue about and will learn expensively as you go.

Anyone who signs up for a group, looking to benefit themselves(which is fine to start) and within 3 days of this is telling a board member of the group he is asking for help how to conduct themselves, is clearly someone who knows how to succeed. I would disregard the opinions that it may not be the best idea because you already know what is best.

Actually some very good advice here (heavy overhead, steep learning curve). Like I said before, I respect honorable opinions, both positive and negative. What I do not respect is posts that ignore basic decency. I don't think it should be tolerated here or anywhere. I point it out online and face to face in the real world whenever it happens in my presence. I don't tolerate it.

Forgot to mention that I have done some custom building, built 2 custom homes in the past 4 years. You must have misunderstood my previous postings, I'm not considering getting involved in the business simply because of my experiences with some granite fabricators. I am considering getting into the business because I have some capital I need to invest. I see an opportunity in this sector. What I see is many fabricators who have not invested heavily in machinery, rely extensively on manual labor, no focus on efficiency and lack of customer service. I think there is a huge opportunity. I am a betting man, and I don't take bets where I don't have a high probability of winning. Out of 200 fabricators, I would say there are less than 20 that run efficient, technologically up to date shops.

I respect all that he has done for the SFA. And all other contributors too. Still, anyone on the Board of Directors should know not to engage in such conduct. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I just don't think it agrees with the Code of Ethics listed in the Rules section. Have you even read that section of the website?

Same goes for all other comments which are in bad taste. I don't think they are appropriate and don't think they should be tolerated.

[Todd Luster]

x IV

I know it's a bulletin board and all. But you being on the SFA Board of Directors, I think this is unbecoming of the position.

I think this shows a total disregard for the spirit of the SFA and what's written in the SFA/Site Rules tab at the top of the page.

Dan,
I appreciate your evaluation, but IMHO, my supporting sound advice given by a sound member, along with my interpretation thus far, falls well within the right of my position, maybe even responsibility.

I'm well aware of what's in that tab.

That being said, if my harshness truly insulted you Dan, I apologize.

[Todd B]

Dan

Listen.

Once you have signed a lease on a 10000 sft building. Purchased 300k - 500k or more in gear and finially found some guys that want to work with stone day in and out. ( tip! It's heavy, hard and minotumious. It breaks real easy and costs a lot)
And have more work than you want but can't do it.

Let's talk!

My bet is you will have the same tone/attitude as most of us. This business will make you hard.(unless you are already)


You need to understand, that in this business there is way more ways to make a mistake. You mention laser templating and the stone is wrong. I have over 4500 digital templates completed and maybe 10-20 mistakes (to big not to small)
Once you see the whole process it will become clear! 1 little weard part of the stone, That you think is nothing. Will be the end of the world and cause tears in the eyes of some clients.

This is not EASY. I'm not trying to put you off entering into this game. But just trying to help. I say go for it!

I would strongly suggest spending some time maybe a week or 2 in a shop so that you can at the very least understand the process.


Also

You have got Todd and the rest all wrong! If you can't take hard words and a bit of fun on the chin then what ever you do don't start any business EVER! It will destroy you.

[Justzack]

Dan i would equate a big investment in this business with playing penny stocks. Somedays you are up somedays down, but you never know where you will be in a week. Don't think that if you put your money in the finest machines you will be a success. There is still a lot of things to consider. A big problem is always material handling, slab and remnant storage, installation just to name a few.
I have put my shop together on a shoestring budget saving wherever I can because there is not guarantee on this investment. I like working with stone. There is a real sense of accomplishment, but if you have no experience it will be an expensive learning curve, very expensive.
You should also change your condescending tone when replying or posting. If you make this leap you will be needing advice from every last person on this forum. And it will be a long time if ever that you can repay them with any helpful information.
Thank you sfa.

[Ken Lago]

For some unbeknown reason when I read monetcristos posts I start thinking of an old "friend' of ours...
I for one will not respond to him anymore.

[GuyboR]

I respect all that he has done for the SFA. And all other contributors too. Still, anyone on the Board of Directors should know not to engage in such conduct. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. I just don't think it agrees with the Code of Ethics listed in the Rules section. Have you even read that section of the website?

Dan,

First off you haven't been here long enough to know what we do or have done as directors to respect it sincerely.

Second, all of the directors are either business owners or in high positions in their respective companies. When we are posting here, we are normally posting as such and giving advice as a fellow fabricator.

On the "grass is greener" discussion here.....Money can be made in this business. Is it easy...NO, but it can be done. If you feel that there is a HUGE opportunity in your market, you had better move FAST as you are not the only smart person in this world. Others will see that same opportunity and come in a clean everyone's clock. Ask any of the Florida or West Coast fabricators. They are about 5 years ahead of any of us on the maturity curve of this business. It has moved from those markets to others, even though fabricators in that area always said "It will never be like that here". Canada is not immune from the same business cycle. It's coming. When? That is the crap shoot part that you will be playing with.

If you want to tool up on the cheap look at this auction. Take a look at the model year on ALL the equipment. I'm betting this person saw an opportunity to conquer their market b/c everyone there was dumb and inefficient and pricing pressures would never change.
2007 Machinery Auction


This was typed as Guy Robertson of Robertson Manufacturing, Inc. not as a director.

[Dan R.]

x XII

[dustinbraudway]

Alot of "new" greatly reduced machinery out there now because there where people who "had the capital to invest and knew nothing about the buisness" then hit the bottom. Just because you have coin and nice machines dosen't make you a fabricator nor will it. You will learn and see. My question to you would be are you going to be like all those other high roller bankrupt peeps with big machines on the market or will you listen to what is being said and learn properly?

[Dan R.]

Yeah, Todd B. !!!!!

[Curtis R. Marburger]

Dan,

You need to spend some time at an actual working shop and see how stone work is done. Far from the finance world as you actually have to "make things". Alot of times things are out of your control. i.e. material breaks, machines break, trucks break, suppliers are slow to deliever, suppliers sell your material that was on hold, containers don't come to port on time, customs holds materials ect.....

Not to say that you couldn't learn how to do it, but it isn't just an easy way to make a buck.

Well said. This business is a lot harder than it looks. From the outside it's easy...start actually making something...that's another story. Go to shops outside your area and spend a day there, come to the workshop in August, etc. See what you're really getting yourself into.

Good luck in your new venture.

outside of this sound wisdom advice ,
Prepare to loose 100k plus , learning this biz , enjoy

don't confuse Luck with Wisdom , , SFA members are giving sound wisdom , or go buy your self a rabbits foot