Consumer w/ question about faulty install- input appreciated

[dustinbraudway]

Wow. That is a straight up commercial job. Stayed in a Hyatt House last weekend. Looked exactly the same. Such a shame.

[BrentP]

When I first started reading this I thought that with some help the seam could be made to look a bit nicer and be fine. After seeing the miters I have to say that the gluing looks pretty bad.

The seam could be made to look better if the glue matched a bit better, the seam was tighter, and maybe surface polished. The miters could be made to look a bit better as well. It's still not gonna be top shelf but with some work the average person would think it looked nice.

[Demetri]

I wonder how much time the fabricator had to get the project done? Looks like it was rushed.

[Siran808]

Demetri- from the time we signed off on the layout I believe they had more than two weeks. In fact they came out to do a second measurement just to be sure (and still the backsplash was short) and we broke the install into two parts with the perimeter first and then the island. There was no rush and they were given as much time as they requested.

[dustinbraudway]

Siran,

Glad you said they could have had as much time as they wanted, because two weeks to do that job properly is to little.


And all honesty. $10k in labour was way to cheap.

[GuyboR]

And all honesty. $10k in labour was way to cheap.

Dustin....

By my math, the fabricator only charged 6k in labor. They grossly under priced this job.

I understand the material itself cost $12k from the distributor

3 slabs - in total the project was $22K (including the perimeter which is a white quartz that I have no complaints about). The Calacatta Gold portion of the project came out to just under $18K.

Siran....did you get competitive quotes from other fabricators? I'm guessing you did and I'm guessing that they were EXTREMELY higher than this one. That is neither here there on your issues for this job as the fabricator knew what they were bidding and you knew what you were getting. It's a tough spot for both of you.

[Stone Dude]

It varies in different markets, but this is not something we would commit to in 2 weeks. Miters would have to be dialed in by hand, dry fit and full assembly in the shop, then taken apart, tuned up, sealed, etc., on top of the other jobs coming through the shop.

[steven nenzel]

Wow, if the labor charge was $6,000 then the workmanship and price match pretty well.

[Jeff H.]

Siran, what were the numbers exactly? The point some of the other guys are making is valid if you did get a lowball price for the labor. I don't think there's anyone here that would do this job for $6K, well........ maybe Miles . As Dan stated earlier, you must fully check out a fabricator prior to hiring and always beware the low bid, especially for a job like this.

[steven nenzel]

Jeff, not even Miles. I'm sure he would consider this custom fabrication beyond his normal scope of work and would charge accordingly. I would also bet he would not be as keen on doing it and would price that in as well.

[Siran808]

I remodeled my bathrooms first and used two different fabricators - one for my Master Bath and this fabricator for my other bathrooms. I was very happy with each fabricator - albeit the work was not as technical. Its a long story, but I did do a competitive bid between the two. The other fabricator actually came in significantly less, and after a lot of back and forth, my kitchen fabricator lowered their price (after determining they could do the job with 3 slabs) but it was still significantly more than the other vendor.

As a consumer I didn't realize that I was getting a aggressive price since I didn't go with the low cost vendor. Bear in mind they told me the material was around $12K, but it could have been more or less as I didn't see the invoice for the material and don't know if there was a markup. Ultimately, I should expect good workmanship regardless of the price. If they didn't think they could do a a great job for the quoted price then they could have passed on it. (BTW I can' t find my invoice, so I'm going to memory on the costs as the moment).

Also, when I was looking around I found a separate fabricator who had their own slabs and quoted me an unnegotiated price of $19.5K for the areas utilizing the Calcutta Gold material. So with that in mind I figured $18K was a decent price since it was my middle quote.

[sparrow]

So basically a $25 per sf ubatuba shop took a shot at a job that was way out of his capability. And failed. Miserably.

[Chris Mills]

Jeff,
I agree 100%. If this fabricator keeps promising book matched........
Sadly, it could end up in court with no one winning anything.
We are talking about remedies and competency. If the fabricator could do it, I would assume that he would have on the first go around. The time for due diligence and education is before the purchase, not after the install.

Sounds like the beginning of a joke... A lawyer signs a contract.


Answer to original poster:
The solution of a discount will be your best resolution. I think you should consider having the fabricator bring the splice piece & splash, and not attempt themselves. Hire someone competent to change/repair the seam and do the backsplash (as conditions allow) as good as possible.
My feeling is that the existing fabricator is over his head a little bit, based on the photos and stories. The reason for the mismatch is irrelevant at this point. Negotiate a discount, get the job repaired elsewhere, and move on. Count it as a cheap lesson, far cheaper than law school.

I am not blaming the consumer.
Fact #1. Fabricator spends a lot of money with distributors. They may not be the most unbiased for a recommendation.

Fact #2. Online reviews can be manipulated by buying bigger packages from providers, including BBB, Yelp and others. Hell, Dun & Bradstreet calls regularly asking for financial information to rate our company. Then, they sell the self reported information to foreign companies wanting to do business with us. How can that be considered accurate? Scam and inaccurate are the nicest way to describe my feelings about Internet reviews, for the most part.

Fact #3. If you did not see (in person) a similar job done by this fabricator, you did not properly vet them. Imo.


Good luck.

I have to agree totally.

[Ken Lago]

Siran, you really believe that the price you pay have nothing to do with the quality you receive, either you are joking or you were born yesterday.

[BrentP]

Surely you must realize that price and quality are fully relevant to each other. Would you expect a Cadillac and a Kia to be of the same build quality? What about if someone offered you some other product for a very low price?

You can have something cheap, fast, or good. Sometimes you can pick two. But you can never get all three.

[Kowboy]

This mistake just makes me think that it was poor attention to detail for the entire project on my fabricator's part.

Siran808:

Unless the cutouts haven't been make in the splash yet, the picture of your island substantiates your fear:

“NEC 210-52 A receptacle shall be installed at each counter space 12 inches or wider, and at each island counter or peninsular space larger than 12 inches by 24 inches.”

http://ask-the-electrician.com/electric ... tlets.html

No one was ever red tagged for a misaligned seam, but a missing duplex receptacle or two will earn one swiftly. This needs to be resolved before any other work continues but especially before they seam that miter.

[Kowboy]

Siran808:

Thirty years ago I worked in a cabinet shop that built retail store fixtures for Sax Fifth Avenue, Bloomingdale's, and others. When someone did crappy work, the co-worker consensus was swift, brutal, and humiliating. I vowed I would never be a victim and never was.

It may be my customer's home and they are writing the checks, but these are my jobs. I have plenty of opportunities, but only one reputation. I sleep well at night knowing that no one can ever post a picture of any of my fabrication work that looked remotely like yours. Most of the guys here sleep soundly too.

Your fabricator has a hearing problem. He never heard Woody say "Did you see that work? Bwahhhaahaha!" His loss is now yours. I remain grateful for the tough love 30 years ago.

[Jeff H.]

Why do people that are in big trouble with the law tend to hire expensive lawyers I wonder? I'm sure there's no difference

[Siran808]

Brent and Ken,
I take issue with what you are saying. Where did I say I didn't think price and quality were related? So are you saying I should have expected crappy workmanship? Agreed that I shouldn't expect a Cadillac at Kia prices, but that's assuming we are dealing with a market where there is clear price delineation. I'm not shopping for a car or clothes where its much easier to compare and research beforehand the quality and price. How am I to know that I'm paying Kia prices, and even if I paid Cadillac prices it still doesn't assure that I'd get a Cadillac product. Based on the quotes I received when looking around the past 6 months, and my experience with mitering marble on my previous remodel (in FL), I actually though I was paying Honda prices.

I didn't go with the cheapest,and I didn't rush my fabricator,andt I should be able to expect good workmanship even if I don't pay top dollar. Like other consumers I am largely at the mercy of my fabricator, as I don't know anything about the technical details and the amount of labor it requires to execute. I certainly did my due diligence, but ultimately there are shortcuts that a fabricator can take that most consumers would never realize (even at Cadillac prices).

BTW, I also found a complicating factor to be the price of the material itself. As you know the same type of material at one vendor might be significantly less at another - it just depends on the lot - so it's difficult to compare apples to apples. If I could purchase the slab myself or had visibility into the purchase price of the slabs then it would be easier to shop around and determine labor cost and what seemed reasonable or fishy.

This forum has been very helpful, and in turn I have been very open about my thinking as it seems to have been helpful and appreciated by some on this board. I realize I made a mistake going with the fabricator I choose, but I certainly don't appreciate being attacked.

[BrentP]

OP,

I didn't mean that as an attack in any way. Different shops price things differently. Some break the price out between labor and material and some don't. And I agree that price doesn't always guarantee quality. But the more expensive prices have a higher probability of being of sound quality than the cheapest, particularly if the cheapest is less by a large margin. Cost of production can only vary so much between shops assuming equal quality. Meaning the most expensive shop may not necessarily do a better enough job than the mid range quote to justify the full difference in their price, and the cheapest quote is probably cutting corners somewhere hence their deviation from the middle.

With that being said, for me as a fabricator it would be a red flag if I were the third shop that had worked on the same house. I would get the impression that either the customer didn't care about the quality or wanted the cheapest work, or both. We have done jobs where we were the third or fourth shop on the scene and invariably these things were true.

[steven nenzel]

Siran, you do have some responsibility in all of this. In order to obtain a law degree you must be more intelligent that the average Joe. You must have known the added complexity of this job vs the vanity tops you had done. You know that in construction there is a correlation between the skill level of the worker and the quality of the work. If you had done your home work you would not have chosen this fabricator. Having said that, I'm not saying the fabricator is not to blame for the result of his work. He clearly does not have the required skills and he should not have taken on this job.

Is it hard for me to feel sorry for you... yes. We get consumers all the time wanting a BMW quality job for a Kia price.

[Ken Lago]

Ultimately, I should expect good workmanship regardless of the price.

This is where you said it. I interpret 'good workmanship'=quality. Also remember the so called back and forth you referred to that I interpret to be negotiating price (maybe it wasn't) also contribute to cutting corners like for example an extra slab that was really needed. Imo, you got exactly what you bargained for. This is certainly not an attack against you just the truth from as I see it.

[Siran808]

Thanks Brent - I don't disagree with anything you said in your last post. BTW, I didn't use three fabricators - I worked with one fabricator for my master, and another for my other bathrooms because they had material in-house that I really liked and couldn't find elsewhere. When it came time for my kitchen I bid between the two. Nevertheless, I agree that I have some responsibility, especially for my failure to do my due due diligence and hire someone capable of properly executing the project, and for that I am paying the price with the results and all the time i've spend on this.

No matter what, I don't come out a winner here. Please remember my initial post was about the short backsplash and mismatched bookends. I suspect that taking accurate measurements, book matching, and communicating potential issues to your clients are part of Fabrication 101, and that we can agree that those basic mistakes are inexcusable even at the "Kia" level. As this board discussion has evolved and I was asked to posted more pictures I've come to realize the subpar job that was done with my mitered edges. My primary complaint however has never been that I didn't receive Cadillac quality (eg. better mitered edges), its the fact that I should be able to expect an accurate measurement and decent book match (or communication thereof if not possible), and for that I don't think I got what I bargained for.

[Ken Lago]

What you seem to miss is you bought a very expensive material that the average countertop guy rarely get to work with, on top of that the level of craftsmanship needed to execute this project is also not average. You took a Rolls Roice to a Kia mechanic and expected the same level of service you would have gotten from the dealer, if you had done you due diligence you would have paid what it should cost ( around 30k) and gotten the perfect job. So yes you did get what you bargained for.

[Dan R.]

All natural stone is not equal and not all fabricators are equal.

Buying a custom made countertop has more to do with the abilities of the fabricator than the condition of the material. Of course, better material will yield a better finished product, all other factors being equal.

Countertops are not a pair of Levi blue jeans, all made in the same factory. Yes, the material is important. The more important aspect is the skill of the fabricator.

The material is the fabric, the fabricator is the skilled labor to stitch it together into the desired result.
In this case, the material was given to someone who is a newbie (regardless of tenure), who made pot holders, not jeans. Thus, regardless of the material, it was given to a novice and a potholder was the result, not the expected jeans.

Most consumers make this error and only understand this dynamic after the fact. Would anyone hire a family practice lawyer to file a wrongful death or injury suit? I would not, I would hire a trial attorney. They both have great ABA on line reviews and both are legal to argue in front of a judge. You have to shop in the right place, to find the right product.

In this case, all interviewed were family practice lawyers with no trial attorneys. This project was most likely doomed from the start, regardless of which one of the pool was chosen. It appears to me, that each possible fabricator was fairly unfamiliar with this type of project in this type of material. Chicago is a predominatly 3 cm granite market. Not many old marble guys left in the area. A machine is no competition for real knowledge of understanding marble, glue and techniques, especially when it comes to marble.
My .02