Tolerance Levels for countertop

[egranite]

Can anyone tell me what is the industry standard for granite countertop being considered level? We have an installation run of 80" that is 1/8" difference over the entire run. The customer is stating that it is not level. We are wondering if there is a published tolerance level for this? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jerry G
Elite Granite and Marble
337-280-4996

[Joe Little]

The customer is right , if its a 1/8 out, its not level
We try to level as much as possible

I'm sure the MA manual list this , and someone may send it to you, or google it.

[egranite]

Joe, thanks for the quick response. What is the source for the 1/8" being out of tolerance?

Since the post, I discovered the following verbiage from an MIA document for countertop installations:

Slab Flatness and Levelness.
Individual stone slabs are to be flat within 1/16" (1.5 mm) when measured with a 4'-0" (1.2 m) straight edge. Finished countertop surfaces including multiple sones are to be both flat and level to 1/8" (3 mm) across 10'-0" (3 m).

This would indicate to me that over an 80" run, 1/8" is within industry standards?

Your thoughts?

[Joe Durfee]

section 6.1 of the MIA Dimension Stone Design Manual.

6.1 Measurement Tolerances. Top
surfaces of the cabinets must be within 1/8"
(3 mm) of flat and level when measured
across a distance of 10'-0" (3 m). Wall
surfaces to receive stone backsplashes must be
plumb and within 1/8" (3 mm) of a true
plane when measured across a distance of 10'-
0" (3 m). When cabinets are not within these
tolerances, a notice to proceed with the
installation shall be obtained from the
customer (or authorized representative).
Installations done on cabinetry that is outside
of these tolerances will have excessive shim
spaces and wide regions of filler material. Any
required aesthetic improvement to conceal
this condition (e.g., additional wood trim) is
the responsibility of others.

[egranite]

So, I read this as we ARE within standard tolerances at 1/8" off over 80". Am I missing something? Or, do you agree that we are within tolerance according to this standard?

Thanks again for your quick responses.

Jerry G.

[egranite]

Joe,

I just read my own post and realize I mistook feet for inches. I was confused. Got it now. 80" is less than 10'. Duh!

Thanks for your help.

[Joe Little]

One of the main issues, as noted in the MIA guideline , is the tolerance of the cabinet , that is required also !
So if the cabinet is off , it can raise a red flag , depending how much you have to shim the piece.
I have thrown a shim under a cabinet many times , so I didn't have to shim up the top on a double bowl vanity and possibly cause problems.

If its a 80" run by itself it is one thing, if its a 80" leg of a "L" or a "U" , its a totally different thing ,IMO, and sometimes requires being flat verses perfectly level.

[innstone]

section 6.1 of the MIA Dimension Stone Design Manual.

When cabinets are not within these
tolerances, a notice to proceed with the
installation shall be obtained from the
customer (or authorized representative).

Don't fall for this, even if a customer, builder, etc... signs off on an out of level install, it can & will be used against you in a court of law.
It is not uncommon for a judge to not even care what a customer signed or what "our" code books say. We are the professionals and we are ultimately responsible for doing everything perfect. I'm not saying its fair or that I agree, I'm just saying that in the event of a legal blowup; Judges don't seem to care about contractor law or industry standards.
Of course this is just my opinion and heresy. I've only had the pleasure of one job getting close to that level.

I would think that there should be at least a few fixes short of a redo to fix this problem though.

[Darryl Miller]

Can anyone tell me what is the industry standard for granite countertop being considered level? We have an installation run of 80" that is 1/8" difference over the entire run. The customer is stating that it is not level. We are wondering if there is a published tolerance level for this? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jerry G
Elite Granite and Marble
337-280-4996

So have you gone back out there and shimmed to top to be level yet?

[egranite]

I have turned this over to my service manager to handle. I'll post the final results once completed. He is actually at Coverings this week.

[Darryl Miller]

I have turned this over to my service manager to handle. I'll post the final results once completed. He is actually at Coverings this week.

My reason for asking is this, is this really worth a fight? Over 1/8"? Are there other ramifications that prohibit this from being a simple fix by shimming the top to level?

[Dan R.]

Hopefully, he will join the SFA and you both can have access to a GREAT RESOURCE.

[topshop]

Some people complain just to get a discount or for free.

[Solid Rock Oregon]

Cut it loose and shim it level. The customer will then look for the next potential discount issue

[Jesse]

Cut it loose and shim it level. The customer will then look for the next potential discount issue

Now his issue will be the caulk gap between the cabinets and the counter top is 1/8"!!!!

[Rick George]

Fix it and move on as this isn't worth the battle and lost referrals.

[Steve A]

Cut it loose and shim it level. The customer will then look for the next potential discount issue

Now his issue will be the caulk gap between the cabinets and the counter top is 1/8"!!!!

Gaps over cabinets are worse than a counter a little out of level.

If the customer wants to point a finger for an out of level top have then point it at the millworker... unless that is also you...

[rtmgCODY]

section 6.1 of the MIA Dimension Stone Design Manual.

6.1 Measurement Tolerances. Top
surfaces of the cabinets must be within 1/8"
(3 mm) of flat and level when measured
across a distance of 10'-0" (3 m). Wall
surfaces to receive stone backsplashes must be
plumb and within 1/8" (3 mm) of a true
plane when measured across a distance of 10'-
0" (3 m). When cabinets are not within these
tolerances, a notice to proceed with the
installation shall be obtained from the
customer (or authorized representative).
Installations done on cabinetry that is outside
of these tolerances will have excessive shim
spaces and wide regions of filler material. Any
required aesthetic improvement to conceal
this condition (e.g., additional wood trim) is
the responsibility of others.

[

I just wanted to post an update to this since I recently went through this and struggled to find this quote in writing. It moved from Chapter 17 to Chapter 22 and is on page 8. "Maximum Variation from Flat & Level, Countertop... 1/8" in 10'-0" "

Hope this helps anyone looking for the exact quote!

I also have a question. How do you address out of level cabinets? Because this verbiage indicates the countertops should be within 1/8" over 10' level. Does that mean the cabinets need to be within that same level? How far out of level do the cabinets need to be for you to say something to the general contractor/homeowner?

[GCA]

we have an expectation sheet we go over with customers at the point of sale which states all cabs are to be within 1/8" of level, then at template we shoot everything with a laser level to verify its close so that we can bring it to there attention sooner rather than later giving them time to have it prepped before we return and install. there has definitely been some people just wanting us to throw tops on wack ass cabinets shimming some areas 1/2"+ and we have them sign off accepting tops installed on way out of level cabinets i'm sure there is nothing legally binding about a few notes and signatures but we try. we just did one that the whole house was leaning there was no way we could have leveled it without causing everything to look crooked as hell they agreed and were happy to sign off to make it look good rather than be level.

[Darryl Miller]

I also have a question. How do you address out of level cabinets? Because this verbiage indicates the countertops should be within 1/8" over 10' level. Does that mean the cabinets need to be within that same level? How far out of level do the cabinets need to be for you to say something to the general contractor/homeowner?

This does not say the countertops are to be within an 1/8". It states that the cabinets should be within 1/8'. Generally if the cabinets are out more than 1/8" we bring it to the customer's attention but if they are out 1/4" or more we have a more in depth discussion about it.

[Mark Meriaux]

I just wanted to post an update to this since I recently went through this and struggled to find this quote in writing. It moved from Chapter 17 to Chapter 22 and is on page 8. "Maximum Variation from Flat & Level, Countertop... 1/8" in 10'-0" "

Hope this helps anyone looking for the exact quote!

I also have a question. How do you address out of level cabinets? Because this verbiage indicates the countertops should be within 1/8" over 10' level. Does that mean the cabinets need to be within that same level? How far out of level do the cabinets need to be for you to say something to the general contractor/homeowner?

DSDM Chapter 22 - Tolerances (link)
Same page, under Substrates, Surface Plane, "Maximum Variation from Flat & Level, Countertop: 1/8" in 10'-0"