2 guys in the shop

[lovegranite]

Attended coverings last weeek. Enjoyed meeting everyone at the SFA booth and especially learning how to remove scratches! Thanks so much. I am very excited about SFA. Today though, I came in to the shop to find only 2 guys working. We had 3 people call in sick. They do this to me all the time. We are a small company. We can't afford CNC at this time. We also don't have a big labor pool. There are very few people who can fabricate in our area. What should I do? Where can I hire some "GOOD" people with good work ethic and who love thier job? I know there are layoff everywhere and here we struggle to get good people. Do you know any one who is looking for a job?
Thanks.
Deepa

[Tynan]

Deepa - Welcome !! Where are you located??

[lovegranite]

We are located in Kentukcy

[Stuart Gill]

Sorry to hear about your labor issues, never cool to have that happen when you need to produce.

We had 3 people call in sick. They do this to me all the time. We are a small company. We can't afford CNC at this time.

CNC technology may be more affordable than you think. I hope Scott @ Kasco chimes in here as his processes have reduced labor with the inclusion of a CNC workcenter into the shop. I would not take a CNC off the table until you actually put a pencil to the total cost of ownership, you may be surprised.

STU

[dantoy]

Deepa, welcome, Please post your contact information. DT

[Joe Little]

I would put a note in all the fabricators pay-checks on Friday.
Gentlemen:
We are going to have to downsize to 3 or 4 fabricators with-in the next month or two depending on work-load, over the next month we will be evaluating preformance, work ethic and overall skill at these positions, along with reliabilty, to determine who will become the longterm fabricators for our company.

[StevePaul]

Yeah, unfortunately, comfortable employees are not always productive employees.

Back in the day when I was banging out custom kitchens, counters and commercial store fixtures in a small family owned cabinet shop, and being the only guy in the shop I could truly count on, I had to decide what types of jobs I could handle with a 1-5 man crew and which machinery would give me the greatest advantage/efficiency/long term gain for the buck. Having a forum and discussions like this would have been really great.

Although opinions and prescriptions for success vary widely in the Stone industry,the SFA should offer invaluable help in defining an intelligent strategy for your business.

Manufacturer loyalties aside, maybe it would be worthwhile to offer suggestions for "dream shop" combinations at various levels of production, floorspace and workforce size. Models to help support decisions for today with an eye for future growth.

(Us sales reps can chime in to verify specs or offer suggestions as needed/requested.)

BTW: Thanks to everyone who attended Coverings! The upbeat tone was very encouraging for everyone.

CMS crew after Coverings >>> ...and then there was the whole parrot thing... but that's another story.

[scott m]

Stuart, my advice is to get out of stone fabrication and do something that makes sense....

But


If you have 5 fabricators, it is cheaper to get a fabcenter/unimax, trust me, the monthly payment will be lower. However, if you cannot qualify for a loan, or don't want to, I suggest you form 2 man teams that will template fab and install their jobs for x dollars per sf as sub contractors....When they fail to show up, you don't fire them, you just dont use them again......


But if you are gonna be in this biz for the long run, you should figure out how to automate..

[Nick]

If you have 5 guys in the shop you can afford a cnc/fabcenter. If you don't want to take the plunge (fire your 2 worst and get a machine), then that is just part of what comes with people labor. Days like today are the manual equivilant of a machine being down for the day on the digital end, but the latter seems to be less frequent.

[Dan R.]

It sounds as if you CAN"T afford to not get a CNC.
1.small labor pool
2.unreliable work attendance
3. constant need for production

Fire 2 guys, buy a CNC and watch the remaining guys work out of fear of being replaced. It sounds as if they are running the shop, not you.

[Ger Vanderbas]

It would be so easy for me to say...dude you need a cnc here...

When two people show up on a regular basis, and you have enough work booked for the other three, the other three are costing you the CNC, and I don't know your situation, but perhaps you are missing promise dates and stuff as a result.

You are in a very interesting environment here of fabricators who collaborate, so the next time they come to work, here's what you do...

1. You call a few of the SFA fabricators in your area and ask them if they can take on your volume for the day. (have this arranged in advance)

2. When they walk in, tell them you cannot pay them for the day. Tell them that you decided to go fishing, and you had to pay another fabricator to do their job. Tell them that they can either start fresh on a new day and understand that absence is taken seriously, or you have to find a permanent plan B.

3. Take the two who are always consistent, fishing for the day and ask them if they have any family or friends they think would be dependable that they could train.

Before I told you you Needed a CNC, I'd need to know alot more about your volume. Which guys are showing up and what they were capable of producing, and to know if you had the means..(actually that might be first.)

Some may find it soothing to know that EVERYONE who contemplates a CNC decision is concerned about the ability to pay.
Some are more confident than others, but everyone thinks about this.
In the same way though, one should also be concerned if the staff assembled can be paid for their behavior. (depending of course on whether or not it will be productive)

It is usually much easier to scrutinize a bank payment for some reason than a payroll payment.

Isn't it logical though that a well made machine can give you a rather finite and fairly predictable level of production in a day? Should that be more scary then 3 dudes not showing up a few times a month? Randomly?

So, you think you can fire the guy, "but you can't FIRE the machine payment?" Guess again. Ask the banks if anyone ever fired a payment.

See how long your employee waits for you to pay him before he quits working? 30 days?...yeah right.

If you are nearing a position where you cannot afford the payment, can you recoup some of your loss by the value of the equipment? What is an employee worth to you after you cannot afford him? (maybe not a great argument because no one's going to lien your house for him) A better argument is what will that guy be worth to you after the payment cycle? (the machine will be worth whatever you were able to net from it's benefits over the cycle PLUS a residual value. If it's Breton and you do the minimal maintenance...a good one.)

As usual, I always advocate thoughtful consideration of all your options, but outfabbing for the sake of gaining control of your operation seems to me to be the logical first step. If you can't do that, honestly I don't see how a CNC's going to make that better.

(this is another one of those posts where I will sound like an A-HOLE, but I hope it's worth the read)

[dustinbraudway]

Deepa,

It's good to see you getting on here and nice to meet you last week! Hope that TP demos we did helped you out! There is some great advice on here!

[dantoy]

good post Ger, first step should be find a fab only partnes. Little risk, learn digital, make a sound descision based on your set of facts

[jonnyrue]

Deepa

We had a similar situation last week, when we lost half our employees (ie 2) for a total of 7 working days.

My partner and I spend time and energy training, educating and helping our guys. We've 20 years of experience between us and give them all the benefits of our experience, but they still kick you in the balls.

Believe me, if I could lift the stuff myself I'd sack them all!

[clhilde]

Deepa

We had a similar situation last week, when we lost half our employees (ie 2) for a total of 7 working days.

My partner and I spend time and energy training, educating and helping our guys. We've 20 years of experience between us and give them all the benefits of our experience, but they still kick you in the balls.

Believe me, if I could lift the stuff myself I'd sack them all!

AMEN!!! But i cant handle it anymore i can fab but no carrying.

[Kowboy]

Ger:

I always like your posts. While I admit to knowing little about CNC machines, I do have a buddy who paid for an edge bander in his cabinet shop and never took delivery.

How is such a thing possible? He's paid low-skilled help to laminate the edges of drawers and door fronts by hand for over twenty years. They keep turning over and he keeps hiring with nothing to show for it. If he had signed for an edge bander twenty years ago, the damn thing would be paying him now.

Ger, if anything, you are under-selling machinery. Guys are paying for machines that will never be delivered and you're one of the few that can stop 'em.

Joe

[politefab]

the next on eto call in sick and you know its fake fire him no questions send him his check...

you will see a change in the shop if not keep going eventually you will find the rite guys

[Ger Vanderbas]

Joe,

There is probably a machine answer somewhere for a situation like this...for sure.

I'd hate to recommend an expensive machine to a guy who can't get his potential operator to show up to work.

That's like fixing a head ache with a kick in the groin.

I think if a guy wants to be in the fabrication business and his manual/personnel model isn't working the CNC will sing to him, and the Breton is the Bocelli, however it's even more important with a payment to make sure you have good reliable people or you punt until you find them, or you go Kasco, do it yourself and find a big ukranian dude to help you hump the rest. I guess that's one way you will always be able to rely on your staff, when it's basically you.

Ironically, when Scott learned his machine to the extent he knows it now, a guy to run his fabcenter sort of fell in his lap. I don't think it's by mistake, I think when you run things a certain way, the growth circumstances just happen.

Machinery is my life and professionally for me there's nothing better than seeing a guy overcome personnel issues with equipment, but every fabshop requires a minimum number of reliable people that machinery doesn't replace. It is important for machinery to be successful to have the right people. There are machines in shambles all over the country which are glorified worktables or perhaps even boat anchors for people who didn't have the people with the correct attitude to implement a digital process, and take care of the equipment. A shop where dude's just decide not to come to work sometimes scares the shite out of me.

[Brian Briggs]

If you can not get funding for or you do not wish to step into a CNC, there are other options. A Fab King, Wizard, Scorpion, etc... is an inexpensive way to be able to cut sinks and do other tasks with minimal skill. You can easily teach anyone to use these machines.

[Todd Luster]

[quote="Brian Briggs"] A Fab King, Wizard, Scorpion, etc... is an inexpensive way to be able to cut sinks and do other tasks with minimal skill.

The one in the middle made it politically correct for a salesman since you don't sell it!!!

But he is right, there are several machines out there that take a lot of the skill out of it. Unfortunately they require the operator to still show up, so you still gotta take that headon regardless.

[lovegranite]

Thanks so much for the sugggestions. Appreicate it greatly! When you guys fire your employees do you worry about them claiming unemployment? Do you fight back? Have you ever had any retaliation problems?

[Nick]

Through absences and random drug testing some employees fire themselves...

My father (to this day with my brother or included) told me a long time ago that he will never be held down by labor. He will do it himself, get a new guy off the street, but labor would never dictate how he has to do things. I think it is the right attitude, if your worried about unemployment, then chances are your held hostage by them to some degree, whether it is the fear of how it will run without those guys, or that you can't do what you need to without those guys. They keep you in permanent limbo. It may not be easy at first, but everyone is replaceable, that includes you and I, doesn't matter if it is our company or not. And after they are gone for a month, you will realize that a wrench the bad seeds really were and be surprised with what your getting done in a better atmosphere without them.

[Dan R.]

we had a friend of an employee work for us on 3 separate occassions. He ended up just not coming to work each time. He was amazed that we could stay in business without him

It is more expensive, in the long run, to keep a bad employee. Production will be less and he will poison all the good attitudes.

[Brian Briggs]

If you think you need to let them go, do it as soon as you have that gut feeling. A bad employee or bad moral is a cancer that will spread through a shop like wildfire bringing the moral and eficiencies of everyone else down. I never worried about unemployment, I never enjoyed letting people go, but it is your bottom line that you have to be the most concerned with.

Todd
Smart ass! Keep in mind, I do not get squat from any sales made outside of my territory

[Todd Luster]

We tried to set it up like Nick was talking, where no matter what Richard and I can handle it if everyone leaves, or even we had to get rid of them, and my shop is set up now where I can pass a slab from one end to the other by myself if necessary through all the process areas. You can't get there overnight, but everytime you set something up and debate a purchase, think that over and where it's going to put you. Is it going to require me to hire another and become dependent or help me? I can't say we haven't taken big jobs where they didn't have us against the wall if they walked, but in everyday processing, no way. Gotta keep contol of your business. Prem's strategy for replacing his employees is great.

Join the SFA, and get in the member's forum, come to some workshops. You will realize this is all a part of the business and we have all been there, some numerous times, but there is always awesome guys to bounce things off of and let you know you're not alone.

Todd
Smart ass! Keep in mind, I do not get squat from any sales made outside of my territory

Yes on more than one occasion, we have been how we'd never survive without this employee..... .
Funny how many times we have heard it in 13 years.

Funny Shizzle!!!
You know your a company man, and you also know you had to go back and put Wizard in there!! I love the Fab King and Scorpion, for the price cool moneymakers!!

BTW I have a Radial Arm for sale....