Creating A Runner in an Island (how to seam)

[smoothcut JUST]

Hello,

I am generally new to this forum but I have been fabricating natural stone for many years now. I have a job that I cannot seem to figure out how to make work.

The customer wants an Island which is about 80 inches long and 32 wide. The material is Ginger Ceasarstone but they want and Exotic "FUSION" Quartzite runner which is 18" wide going down the middle of it. It also has mitred aprons running down both sides to the floor. I want to cut them all individually and set them with Gorilla Clamps in the home. My issue is that the Gorilla Clamps are 7 1/4" wide and my Ceasarstone pieces are 6 3/4" wide. So I will not be able to put my clamps on the pieces to get them to align and squeeze together properly. Does anyone have any help they can give me on this.

Thanks.

Andrew - StoneMark Granite

[Alex_Bores]

I would use bar clamps in this circumstance.

Also, I would recommend the color match Multi-bond for the Caesarstone.

Maybe something like this will work in your case.

this is a 50" Clamp

[Andy Ross]

Id glue it in the shop.

[Alex_Bores]

Id glue it in the shop.

Good idea, how are you going to get a tight seam?

A clamp

[Angel]

do you have the newer Gorilla Clamps? The newer ones you can use one stuff as narrow as 4". My guys showed me this, its just a matter of moving a seal

Make the strip in middle smaller

the best way would be to use both-one for leveling the other for making the seams tight.

[Omni Cubed Larry]

I was originally going to suggest our Seam Setter VCM or VCA. They have smaller cups that would fit on your pieces, BUT, they will probably cause the pieces to "butterfly" up if you use the levelers because your pieces are narrow (I think this would be the case with any seam setter in that situation).
Also, if you use a bar clamp, you might get a similar result of those narrow pieces buckling as you add pressure (especially if your cuts aren't EXACTLY perpendicular to the polished surface). You need something else to keep the pieces flat in the same plane as the polished surface so they won't rotate. Maybe something like a combination of our vacuum cup Sink Hole saver and the bar clamps (side by side). The problem with that setup is the seams are long and won't end up totally flat without some leveling capability, then you're left with top polishing which could be a problem since it is Ceasarstone. You could put blocks and shims under the Sink Hole Saver rail. Any way you do it is going to be a bear.

Seems like an odd combination of materials to me. I guess that is why I'm not a designer.
Please post photos when it is done!

[Darryl Miller]

Just an off the cuff thought here, but why not glue it up in the shop upside down on another piece of flat granite using bar clamps? That way variances in the material thickness would be on the underside and you could clamp the side pieces down to the substrate to keep them from buckling. I've done things similar to this with wood using this method.

[Andy Ross]

How many sets seam setters will this require? 3? Do you even have that many? I would be using bar clamps and repolishing the entire surface. If you aren't going to repolish, I would use a bar clamp every 6" and use shims between the bar clamp and the piece to act as a cam. Pieces that narrow will flex easily.

I can't see this producing acceptable results without repolishing.

[Israel]

Glue it up in the shop with pieces large enough to properly put grips on then return to saw to trim to size.

[accurategranite]

You're going to have to dry fit everything in the shop.

Turn it face down, laminate anything that isn't running to the floor in the shop, then turn it face up and dry fit the sides. It's going to be lots of fun.

John

http://sa6013.wixsite.com/accurate-granite

[Omni Cubed Larry]

Glue it up in the shop with pieces large enough to properly put grips on then return to saw to trim to size.

Smart thinking.

What will still happen though is if you use the leveling capability at all, it will just cause those pieces to butterfly up. Clamp the side pieces down, but the middle piece may still want to lift up if the leveling force is not split between the seams (don't put too much down pressure). Even a 12" wide piece will be flexible over 80", so it will be a challenge to get it flat with no lippage.

I can't even guess how difficult it would be to top polish these two very different materials joined together.

[smoothcut JUST]

WOW! so many responses, Thank you all )

I am going to go over these tonight and review. First off, We cannot top polish as it is Ceasarstone going into Quartzite (EXOTIC). The island can be fabricated in the shop but I don't think I can get it perfectly level in my shop without seam setters and a perfectly level Steel table which we don't have. I know for a fact the cabinet is about as level as we can get so it would be best to install this in the home.

[Dan R.]

Do one seam at a time. Use a color at he'd glue. Finish with Fill-a-chip as needed.

Perfectly flat table is not necessary. Set the top flat. Variance will be at bottom, if any. Blend as needed.

Worry about getting the seam great. For the second seam check for flat with a metal straight edge.

You will do fine.

[innstone]

Just a thought...
Would there be a danger of the 2 different stones expansion/contraction?
I wouldn't expect the seam would hold if/when the engineered stone shrunk or expanded.
But, I don't really know.

[Omni Cubed Larry]

Interesting point Dave... a calculation challenge I can't walk away from.

[Omni Cubed Larry]

I assume a house will be between 30 degrees to 100 degrees F (but not necessarily). This is about the same as 0 to 40 degrees C.

If that is the case, then over 80", the Caesar Stone will probably expand a little over 1/32" more than the middle piece.

Will that matter. Probably not if the stone is glued at a temp that is the average that the house will be. In other words, if the stone is glued and installed at about 65 degrees F, then the thermal expansion will be cut in half because the difference in temperature to the lowest from that average temp is half. And the difference in temperature to the highest temp from that average temp is half.

-------------------------------------------

Here are the specs...
Caesar Stone's published thermal expansion is 1.3x10^-5 to 1.9x10^-5 cm/cm/°C
I found another website that listed granite,marble, limestone as 4.4x10^-6 in/in/°F
(I assume the quartzite is similar)

These are different units, so I just stuck with the given units and then converted it at the end to inches.
(I will assume the change in temperature = T = 70°F = 40


Here is the math...
Granite
.0000044 x 80" = .000352
.00352 x (100-30)°F = .025"

Caesar Stone
.000019 x 203.2cm = .0038608
.0038608 x (40-0)°C = .154cm = .061"

That is a thermal expansion difference of .036" over the 80" span for a total temperature difference of 70 degrees F.
But the actual expansion will be about half if the stone is glued at a temperature somewhere in the middle (ie. 65-70 degrees F). To give you an idea... .018" is about 4 to 5 sheets of printer paper.

Don't glue it in your freezing shop. If you glue it in the home, maybe let the stone get to temperature over 24hrs kind of like how they do wood floors.

[Dan R.]

Nice job !

[Darryl Miller]

Smart ass.......

[Ken Lago]

There is always an exception to the rule. Like who would have thought someone as Larry would be among a bunch of dumbasses. lol

[Omni Cubed Larry]

Thanks guys!

[Kowboy]

Andrew:

You could clamp waxed-edge straightedges to the top perpendicular to the center seam, then clamp one side of the insert to the straightedges and the piece after gluing. Scrape the squeeze out.

Now you can take the half finished seam to the job site and use your gorilla grips normally because the grips will span the previously made seam.

[Scruffy]

Steve here from Monument Toolworks.
You can still use the GGs on the narrow strips, even if you have the original style. Take any flat piece of plywood or particleboard (melamine is best) and butt it up to the outside edge of the strip. Splice it to the strip with packing tape, tape bridging the 2 pieces. The Gorilla pod will now suck down onto this extended width strip. The tape will have no effect on the holding power of the grip. Make sure the tape is just a single layer and all wood surface is covered, as both plywood and particleboard are very porous. It will be slightly tricky to get the first pod stuck but once you take 30 seconds to master this, no problem.

[Ken Lago]

Wouldn't a strip of rubber solve the issue, I mean you could even route the grove if you want, right?

[smoothcut JUST]

I finally figured out how do do this and wanted to share photos.

Thanks for all of your suggestions and support.

We had some delimmas as the Caesarstone was thinner than the Quartzite. We laid an old slab on a rolling fold down table and used template paper to keep the island from binding too the slab. We shimmed and leveled the pieces the best we could on the slab and then used gorilla clamps. We had to use 3 full sets or 6 clamps per side. We did each side seperate. Then we very very carefully flipped it upside down while the table was tilted to a 45 degree angle. We then put 10 steel rods inside the piece -- 2 each slot and then used flowing Epoxy to set them in. We then waited a day and ran the machine on the CNC for the radius and then cut the end off on the other side which was too big (we had to have it large so the grips would fit on.)

Then we put the island back on our CNC saw and cut the miter. We then took matching fusion and re-created the same process by making the aprons. You see a final shot in the house. I will soon have finished photos of both sides. Once again, I thank everyone who was of help in this process.

Sincerely,

Andrew Just
Sales Manager / VP
StoneMark Granite
www.stonemarkgranite.com

[smoothcut JUST]

working while glue is setting

working while glue is setting.JPG (117.13KiB)Viewed 1284 times

rodding upside down

rods upside down.JPG (140.89KiB)Viewed 1284 times

shimming before gorilla clamps

shimming before gorilla clamps.JPG (120.69KiB)Viewed 1284 times

mitred apron

mitred apron.JPG (96.9KiB)Viewed 1284 times

island on table

island on table.JPG (121.93KiB)Viewed 1284 times

gorilla clamps

gorilla clamps on.JPG (128.38KiB)Viewed 1284 times

everyone racing to level perfect

everyone racing to level perfect.JPG (122.81KiB)Viewed 1284 times